New Kadampa Tradition / Kadampa Buddhism & Western Shugden Society

Delusion & Perversion

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1. “If you decide to follow Carola [Gen Kelsang Dechen], the connection between you and me will automatically cease. As a result of this your ordination vows will cease. This means that you are no longer ordained and that you cannot use the ordination name any more that you have received from me.”

   Q: What did the Buddha do when some of his monks followed Devadatta? Did he say “If you decide to follow Devadatta, the connection between you and me will automatically cease. As a result of this your ordination vows will cease. This means that you are no longer ordained and that you cannot use the ordination name any more that you have received from me.”?

   A: The Buddha sent Shariputra and some close disciples to the place of Devadatta and asked them to inform the monks that Devadatta is misleading them and that what Devadatta teaches are not the teachings of the Buddha. So, Shariputra and some other monks asked the misled monks to leave Devadatta and to join the order of the Buddha again. Those who didn’t follow this recommendation of the Buddha were free to follow Devadatta. Devadatta’s community continued for some decades and survived the death of Devadatta and the Buddha.

   The ordination is not lost because someone follows someone else (how ridiculous!) but because one has broken one of the four root vows. It is also quite of a non-sense that connections cease by saying so. A connection is a connection no matter how much one wants to ignore that. This is true for both sides, Geshe Kelsang’s and his disciples’. Both have a karmic connection with each other and this connection became even deeper in this life. If it is a good connection or a bad connection is another question. It is the Sangha of at least 5 fully ordained monks in a remote region who confer the ordination vows. An unrealsitic claim one would have no connection with Geshe Kelsang does not remove those vows which were once validly conferred. If the ordination vows were properly conferred and properly kept, they are still intact no matter what Geshe Kelsang said.

   

   Anne

   June 13, 2011 at 6:34 pm

   Reply
2. TP, I can’t imagine how you developed the idea that Geshe Kelsang is isolating his students from genuine Buddhist Masters (like, for example, the Dalai Lama who abandoned his own Gurus and has deviated from the tradition he was given? No thanks!). Geshe Kelsang has NEVER said that his students can’t read other Buddhist books – all he has said is that the only subjects that are allowed to be taught in NKT Dharma Centres is what is in NKT Dharma books, which is no different from what is written in books by other Gelugpa Teachers. You are misrepresenting Geshe Kelsang and the NKT.

   Pureland books are not taught in Tibetan Buddhist centres. Zen is not taught in Theravadin monasteries. I don’t see what problem you have with Geshe Kelsang’s teachings being given in Geshe Kelsang’s centres. Furthermore, everyone has choice. People who follow Geshe Kelsang do so (hopefully) after investigating him and the teachings that he gives. If, at any time, they are not happy do practise within NKT, they are free to leave, as you did so yourself. What is not wise is to then go on to criticise Geshe Kelsang and the NKT as this in contradiction to the Fifty Verses on the Spiritual Guide. If you see someone as your Guru and receive empowerments from them, you create a sacred bond which must not be broken, so your actions of criticism are most unwise. Lama Zopa is telling people not to abandon Geshe Kelsang and this advice is in accordance with tradition.

   As to the letter, Geshe Kelsang was loving you by telling you clearly that by leaving you would lose all authorisations, He was trying to help you by stopping you from making a big mistake but you made your own decision and you were free to do that. Geshe Kelsang didn’t try to ‘bind’ you – you left of your own free will but now you are blaming him; for what, I’m not quite sure. You did what you wanted and now you’re following a different tradition, so why hold onto all this enmity? It would be better for you to follow Lama Zopa’s advice and just get on with your practice without criticising Geshe Kelsang, the Dharma he is teaching and the tradition he has founded.

   

   Lineageholder

   June 13, 2011 at 10:24 pm

   Reply
3. “I can’t imagine how you developed the idea that Geshe Kelsang is isolating his students from genuine Buddhist Masters”

   Where are NKT people who have contact and receive teachings by genuine masters, e.g. from Ajahn Sumedo, H.H. Sakya Trizin or even from the own teacher of Kelsang Gyatso, Geshe Lhundup Sopa, or the incarnation of his “root Guru” Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche? Do you wanna tell me that Gen Thubten, Gen Samten, Gen Khyenrab or Gen Dekyong are genuine masters?

   Your rant about “the Dalai Lama who abandoned his own Gurus and has deviated from the tradition he was given?” is ridiculous. The Dalai Lama has many gurus, and he did not abandon them. He didn’t even abandon Trijang Rinpoche, he has respect for him but he disagrees with Shugden practice. Also only some of the Gurus of His Holiness the Dalai Lama practised Shugden. Some of his Gurus were not even fond of Shugden but in opposition to this practice. One of his gurus, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, refused to visit the house of Trijang Rinpoche because (he joked to him) “your protector would knock me down”. So we have religious freedom, and nobody can force anybody to practice what he has found out as not being appropriate to practice. Buddha’s teachings do not teach obedience but thorough checking and only to accept what is proofed not to be harmful:

   Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt. When there are reasons for doubt, uncertainty is born. So in this case, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering’ — then you should abandon them.

   http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html

   I agree with you “No thanks!”
   We don’t need blind fellowship, blind faith and obedience.

   Though it might be true that in recent years “Geshe Kelsang has NEVER said that his students can’t read other Buddhist books” he clearly states in his books

   “It is mixing different religious traditions that causes sectarianism”[22] , and he discourages the reader of doing so, stating “studying non-religious subjects is less of an obstacle to our spiritual progress than studying religions of different traditions.”[22] “The practices taught by one teacher will differ from those taught by another, and if we try to combine them we will become confused, develop doubts, and lose direction.”[23] “The ugly, unfortunate result of not understanding pure Dharma and of following misleading teachings that pretend to be pure Dharma is sectarianism. This is one of the greatest hindrances to the flourishing of Dharma, especially in the West. Anything that gives rise to such an evil, destructive mind should be eliminated as quickly and as thoroughly as possible.”[24]

   details see http://buddhism-and-fundamentalism.blogspot.com/

   As a devoted student of Geshe Kelsang who wishes to avoid to be confused, how much courage there is to read other texts or teachings by other teachers if such actions are explained to be “confusing”? Actual Geshe Kelsang and NKT are extremely skilful to say at times one can go to other teachers or read other books but then if someone really does it, there is big trouble. There are just enough reports about this by former NKT followers. Though sometimes there are rare exceptions to this too.

   It is not me who gives a misrepresentation of the facts but you when you wrongly claim that I would have said that NKT students “can’t read other Buddhist books”. I didn’t say that. Where did I say that? Of course some NKT students and also some NKT teachers, e.g. my former NKT teacher Dechen, read other books than Kelsang Gyatso’s. I wrote “he discourages his students to read books not written by him because they would “confuse” them.” and this is true, see the quotes above. Though, after public criticism arose, Kelsang Gyatso said at an NKT festival that his students can read other books or even go to other teachers, when the new FP program teacher in Germany recommended in the FP class a book not written by “Geshe-la” she was immediately (in one week only) removed from being the FP teacher. Not only this, when the students came with the recommended non-Geshe-la-book as a secondary source to the FP class a week later, the newly installed FP teacher (installed by KG) said openly: “this book is not wished for here”. I don’t know whom you want to convince with your comment. You cannot convince me. There are many similar stories and experiences made by others, made by myself, and why is this so? Because NKT has double standards, saying something in public which sounds nice and reasonable but acting differently behind the scene. These ethical double standards are what makes it a long journey for people to see the facts as they are, that NKT is a narrow minded, isolated cultish movement, with a tendency to delude, deny and pervert the facts and an amount of pride that is quite impressive and which serves to have feelings of superiority and “feeling holy” while at the same time looking down on others—including holy beings like the Dalai Lama or Tibetan Buddhists in general, who are well defamed by KG and many NKT followers.

   “Pureland books are not taught in Tibetan Buddhist centres. Zen is not taught in Theravadin monasteries. I don’t see what problem you have with Geshe Kelsang’s teachings being given in Geshe Kelsang’s centres.”

   I do not have a problem. NKT has problems. NKT claims to be “pure Gelugpas” but do not study the major texts of the Gelugpa school or even the commentaries of Je Tsongkhapa. At other times NKT claims to be Kadampas but do not study and practice the practice of the Kadampas.

   Zen and Theravada are not Tibetan Buddhism, but NKT claims to be “pure Gelugpa”, a specific branch of Tibetan Buddhism, but still does not allow any properly educated Gelug master or teacher or Geshe to teach the Dharma to NKT students. This is quite of a contradiction, except NKT sees themselves as a utterly new tradition which has nothing to do with the Gelugpas. BTW, for instance in the Theravada monastery Chithurst in Petersfield, the library has many books from many teachers from different traditions, including Tibetan Buddhism. And how is the library of the NKT head center, Manjushri Institute? What books are there? I tell you: Only books by Kelsang Gyatso, all other books were removed from the library based on the order of Kelsang Gyatso. What does this tell to NKT students if a “library” consists only of the books of one author?

   “Furthermore, everyone has choice. People who follow Geshe Kelsang do so (hopefully) after investigating him and the teachings that he gives.”

   No, actual, there is no choice. People who enter NKT are pushed to take the Highest Yoga Tantra empowerment from KG with the arguments like that it is so rare and special and “nobody knows how long Geshe-la lives” etc. and them is told that there is no problem in any way to receive that empowerment, even if one feels not ready to do so. But after people have taken the HYT empowerment they learn that “Geshe-la is your root Guru” and that leaving “your root guru” will lead you to hell, and one won’t meet any qualified teacher in future lifes—once one came out of hell—and even if so, one would not develop faith in them. This is a most wonderful way to make people loose freedom. Not only this, because outside of the NKT there is everything so degenerated, like the Dalai Lama or Tibetan Buddhism in general (this is the propaganda of KG/NKT since many years), and because the world is in a state of serious degeneration only the pure world of NKT with the pure teachers, pure practitioners, pure lineage and pure views (who see Geshe-la as a Buddha) can rescue the person who stumbled once—due to the omnipresence and the advertisement skills of NKT, and due to the own karma—into the NKT. …. not to speak of the many subtle manipulations which install feelings of fear and guilt in NKT followers…

   “If, at any time, they are not happy do practise within NKT, they are free to leave, as you did so yourself.”

   This is your theory or your claim but the reality is quite different from this. Due to the manipulations, the distorted teachings, the delusions in NKT and its cultish structure it is actually not easy at all to leave. It is more easy if you were only loosely affiliated but not if you gave your heart or committed fully to NKT. Actual the dynamic structure of NKT are rather functioning like a drug, and NKT followers are as dependent from NKT like drug addicts are dependent from their drug. As it is extremely hard to get rid of drug addiction, and as it is rather usual that one can only find the courage to let go drugs by undergoing tremendous suffering, similar hard and challenging it is to leave the NKT. There are a lot of similarities here, worth to be investigated. Both things are very similar.

   This is also true in my own case. Actual, I was utter shocked by KG’s behaviour and I was quite ashamed that I allowed a public “spiritual execution”—led by KG—to take place without saying nothing but being completely paralysed by irrational fears.

   “What is not wise is to then go on to criticise Geshe Kelsang and the NKT as this in contradiction to the Fifty Verses on the Spiritual Guide. If you see someone as your Guru and receive empowerments from them, you create a sacred bond which must not be broken, so your actions of criticism are most unwise.”

   Didn’t Geshe-la say that if we follow “Carola” we would have no connection to him any more? If there is no connection with him any more how can there be a secret bond? The Fifty Verses on the Spiritual Guide are not taught in NKT. Should I follow those teachings or what Geshe-la and you’ve said? You said, people are free to leave NKT, I left NKT and Geshe-la said that I will have no connection with him any more if I do so. So what is the problem? I criticize a person—according to whom there is no connection any more. This should be fine from that perspective, shouldn’t it?

   From a dharmic point of view one should not be negative to one’s teachers. It might indeed not be wise “to criticise Geshe Kelsang”, on the other hand, every person who has become cautious before entering the NKT world or who can set himself or herself free from the destructive setting of NKT is worth the work. Also Geshe-la received teachings (and quite likely empowerment(s) too) from HH the 14th Dalai Lama (a witness who directly saw him there told this to me) so is also Geshe-la “not wise then to go on to criticise the Dalai Lama and the Gelugpas as this in contradiction to the Fifty Verses on the Spiritual Guide.”?

   Sometimes a ‘victim’ behaves like the ‘perpetrator’ because he or she didn’t learn better ;-)
   On the other hand I didn’t call Geshe-la a “Liar” “evil” and “cruel”. I think I am a bit more restrained but I should improve of course otherwise I’m harming my self and others.

   “Lama Zopa is telling people not to abandon Geshe Kelsang and this advice is in accordance with tradition.”

   This is not true in a general sense. You are referring to an specific advice which was once (many years ago) given to a specific person in a specific situation at a specific time based on a specific knowledge. It is not a general advice for every person, at all times in all circumstances.

   Also my own teachers told me very differently. One of them, a master who is the head of more than 25 monasteries in Bhutan, said that wrong teachers “must be abandoned because they lead people onto wrong paths” and my main teacher said that I should ignore that advice by Lama Zopa Rinpoche. He also said if I had the wish to study under Geshe Kelsang Gyasto he would really insist not to do so. I think this is clear.

   “As to the letter, Geshe Kelsang was loving you by telling you clearly that by leaving you would lose all authorisations,”

   When one enters into the realm of NKT sooner or later and dependent on the heart commitment all of one’s identity is mingled with the NKT universe. What KG actual did was: all what I gave you, and all what is precious to you, my books, your ordination, your likening to teach others or to be a teacher, and your relation to me (the Buddha) you will loose. If you go you loose everything which is precious to you. Not only this, you also loose your “root guru” which means, that one will go to hell by having left him. Before KG wrote this letter he also said to Dechen, that she had (by “making business with Tibetan Lamas” and not following his orders etc) lost and broken all of her ordination vows, her bodhisattva vows and her tantric vows. So when Geshe-la writes at the end of the letter: “In this way you will be in the same situation like Carola. I hope you have clarity about your decision.” we had this in mind too.

   To call this love is perverse. There is nothing more to say.

   

   tenpel

   June 14, 2011 at 7:52 am

   Reply
   • Dear TP, thanks for your considered reply. The Dalai Lama has abandoned the tradition he was brought up in and his publicly expressed doubts about his Teachers are destroying the Gelugpa tradition, but that’s another subject. You quote the ‘Kalama sutra’ (a much misused sutra, sadly) but, ironically, most Tibetan Buddhists’ rejection of Dorje Shugden is ENTIRELY because the Dalai Lama has done so and they are following him unquestioningly – definitely a case of ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ There is no logical, valid reason for their sectarian stance and a lot of superstition.

     Geshe Kelsang has never told anyone they cannot read books other than his – fact. End of discussion. As I said before, you wouldn’t expect to find a zen Teacher giving a class from the Pali Canon or a Theravadin monk teaching the Vajrayana. It’s perfectly reasonable that the only subjects that are taught in Kadampa centres are subjects from Geshe Kelsang’s books because that’s all the Teachers are qualified to teach, having received the transmission and blessings of that lineage alone.

     People are free to leave NKT; you are evidence of that, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to criticise someone whom you accepted as your Guru and from whom you received Highest Yoga Tantra empowerments. The Fifty Verses is clear on that. It’s true that this teaching is not given explicitly in NKT, but it is given implicitly in Joyful Path of Good Fortune in the chapter on Relying on a Spiritual Guide in the section ‘The Dangers of Breaking our Commitment to our Spiritual Guide’. The negative consequences are very clear indeed and anyone who transgresses this advice clearly doesn’t have any faith in Buddha’s teachings, since it accords completely with tradition. Your ideas that people are pushed to take a HYT empowerment, that NKT is like a drug, controlling and so forth is nonsense. I think it’s a shame when one’s spiritual ambitions are not fulfilled within a particular tradition, but the wise thing to do is move on, find someone that works for you and at least acknowledge the kindness you received from your previous Teachers without disparaging them, especially since you made some promises to them – promises you were free to make and made freely without coercion.

     

     Lineageholder

     June 15, 2011 at 11:12 pm

     Reply
4. @LH, a PS to my former comment.

   I think it is exactly because the NKT has ethical double standards—this blog, former members and New Kadampa Survivors, as well as reports to INFORM etc. give enough evidence for this—NKT followers, based on their own experiences, believe that other Buddhists, and especially the Dalai Lama, have these ethical double standards too. Most of what the New Kadmapa Tradition or Western Shugden Society say about the Dalai Lama are mere projections based on the faults of the own limited and narrow minded and sectarian mind. Even if there is something which can be considered to be a fault NKT leadership and their followers—based on their own aversion or anger—exaggerate these faults (=’fault finding’) and they project these negative mental images onto the Dalai Lama (like their own hypocrisy and lies); instead of realizing that their claims are only distorted mental images—projections of an “impure mind”.

   I think I am not unqualified to say this because I had taken part in the protests against the Dalai Lama at different places with the NKT, I was an outspoken critic of the Dalai Lama when I was in the NKT, based on the one-sided, faulty information NKT leadership and students passed on to me, and my internal rejection to really check the facts in an unbiased and non-deluded manner. It took me years to work trough all of those NKT “brainwashing” (to check the views NKT passed on to me) and to realizes that almost everything was either wrong, taken out of context, an exaggeration, an untruth, a mixture of untruths with some truth or based on a lack of understanding of historical or cultural background or naivety and pride.

   The blog was also made for the sake of present or former NKT students. My idea is too to share my rather hard work with others so that it might be more easy for them to leave the NKT and to get rid of the mental walls, wrong views and delusions one learns within NKT so quickly. Sadly, some people are fed up with Buddhism after having left NKT, having lost the chance to explore the vastness, and profundity of Buddhism deeply. Though NKT is only a contributing condition for that, still I think this is very sad because Buddhism, practised in a non-sectarian way and with an approach of self-critical introspection into the own mind, based on proper understanding, is one of the best things one can meet in this world.

   —-

   Now with respect to your last comment:

   “The Dalai Lama has abandoned the tradition he was brought up in and his publicly expressed doubts about his Teachers are destroying the Gelugpa tradition, but that’s another subject.”

   If this is true, then it follows Pabongkha Rinpoche has abandoned the tradition of Je Tsongkhapa that was brought up in and his publicly expressed doubts about Je Tsongkhapa’s protectors, Vairavana, Kalarupa and Mahakala.

   Moreover, expressing doubts about a specific practice which is seen as controversial also by other traditions, a pratice not taught by the Buddha or Padmasambhava or Je Tsongkhapa, a practice which is based on sectarianism and which makes even fear to Buddhists from other Tibetan Buddhist schools, is nothing bad. The Buddha might have said: “Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt.”
   There are many instanced that students surpassed their teachers and that they corrected them. In case you do not know such examples, you can read this passage:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kelsang_Gyatso/Archive_3#POV_.22One_of_the_strongest_tenants_of_Buddhism_is_to_never_forsake_your_teachers_teachings..22

   To not accept the advice of a teacher which is contrary to the Dharma or against one’s own results of having thoroughly investigated an subject matter is perfectly fine, as it is said in the commentary by Je Tsongkhapa on Guru devotion. It is also in line with the Kalama Sutra and no abuse of it but a use of its meaning ;-)

   It would be good if you would be open enough to get the facts correctly and if you would stop to delude yourself and others by painting black-and-white-images of a quite complex and colourful reality. For a start you could reflect on this differentiated statement by His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama with respect to Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche:

   “I am of the opinion that Phabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche’s promotion of the worship of Dholgyal was a mistake. But their worship represents merely a fraction of what they did in their lives. Their contributions in the areas of Stages of the Path, Mind Training and Tantra teachings were considerable. Their contribution in these areas was unquestionable and in no way invalidated by involvement with Dholgyal… My approach to this issue (i.e. differing on one point, whilst retaining respect for the person in question) is completely in line with how such great beings from the past have acted.”

   BTW also Je Tsongkhapa didn’t accept certain practices* or didn’t accept certain advice from his teachers, he was an outspoken critic. This mentality is alive in the Dalai Lama but not in the naivety of obedience NKT is proclaiming and practising.
   * or Je Tsongkhapa accepted things not accepted by his teachers. For instance the Kalachakra tantra was accepted by Je Tsongkhapa as being authentic while his main teacher, Ven.Rendawa, saw it as being inauthentic. Je Tsongkhapa could’nt have been a “reformer” without an critical attitude to question everything he encountered.

   If you would really investigate the facts in an open and unbiased manner your propaganda empire would collapse.

   It is NKT who invented the story that by rejecting a practice of one of his Gurus, the Dalai Lama had ‘abandoned’ Trijang Rinpoche but in fact he spoke with Trijang Rinpoche about it, and according to the Dalai Lama Trijang Rinpoche accepted his approach. NKT, especially Jim Belither, have created quite a lot of misleading accounts for the sake to publicly denounce the Dalai Lama to have “abandon” his “root guru” which he never did. Among the many strange and distorted stories NKT has spread all over the world and amongst their devotees is Belither’s “green brain” story which should show to NKT devotees and others that the Dalai Lama would have even mocked about one of his gurus. The background of this story was explained recently here at the blog by a Westerner who leaned Tibetan and who asked one of his teachers about this. I have never ever seen a self-correction or an excuse of the rumours and faulty claims NKT has spread…

   Now with respect to the other points in your comment, I do not comment on these, I lack time and I think it is up to the reader to explore those things. I have done my work and I have peace with the results.

   

   tenpel

   June 16, 2011 at 11:04 am

   Reply
5. dear dharma friends

   in the interests of keeping dharma pure, and our minds clear should we not reflect a little more on the teachings of the buddha ? whilst I appreciate it is natural that any deciple would out of love and gratitude deffend his own guru,it is senceless for us to argue over every detail of an issue,by doing so we run the risk of indulging our ego,allowing ourselves to become involved in disputes which eventualy disscredit or worse damage our liniage and/or tibetan buddhism as a whole.
   did the buddha not say to his deciples,”look not at the word but at the meaning”?did he not say to his deciples,”go forth and teach acording to the minds of the people you meet”? did he not urge us to examine his word (or equaly any instruction) to put it to test,to find out for our selves the validity of that teaching, did he not advise us to take nothing on faith alone.
   By dint of previously created karma we are born in to a fortunate position where by we might come in contact with dharma,but allso in the un fortunate position of having so much choice at our disposal that it might serve to cause us extreme confusion, whilst on one hand it is advisable to be aware of all the different dharma oppertunitys that exist,it is only possible for us to follow one path at any given time.
   buddha allso taught” that we should regard dharma as medecine,and ones teacher as physiton”, if we are as we accept ,subject to delusion,then we should be extremely carefull that we are not acting against the best interests of dharma as a whole,and that we use our time wisely perfecting our own practice.what is right for one is not necicarily right for anouther,therefore we should not criticise anothers teacher or his methods, if through examination we find some thing disturbing we should naturaly walk away, but before we dismiss any teaching or advice we should examine carefully our own motivation and the true reason we might find an instruction distastefull ?
   I am personaly disturbed by this whole issue as I have deep gratitude in my heart for both the dalai lama and for geshe kelsang,as from the teachings of both I have benifited, I have allso benifited from the teachings of other gurus or kind teachers,and can testify that if one relys wholeheartedly on the dharma one can take teachings from different masters,but there are serious pitfalls in this method and I might sugest that it is not nececarily the best method . It is important to have a strong and suportive sangha around one (and some consistency) else it is easy to become distracted, it is allso important to share and deepen our understanding of dharma,but our reliance should be ultimately on buddha’s unflawed nature, all other forms are but aspects of that nature,
   I spent time with the N.K.T. and took empowerments of chenreizig and manjushri how ever being a some what solitary person I prefered to practice out side of a center, I do not how ever feel that I can or should put down those practices because I do not practice with the N.K.T. as it is not possible to un realise a realisation or undo a corectly placed devotion or gratitude, and deep gratitude still exists in my heart for geshel la . I am very concerned that out of enthusiasm many deciples get carried away with too much quoteing ,much of which quite possibly is out of context it is not only distructive to ones own tradition ,but it is seriously damaging both to the individual and to buddhism as a whole,
   are we crazy ? or do we need dharma protectors to protect the precious dharma from our stupid selves ?

   may everyone be happy and atain pure enlightenment .

   

   ratikala

   June 26, 2011 at 8:01 am

   Reply
6. please acept my appologies for spelling mistakes I cant, please correct !

   thankyou.

   

   ratikala

   June 26, 2011 at 8:39 am

   Reply

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