A life in the day of the New Kadampa Tradition
[Legal disclaimer: everything in this essay is the view and experience of the author and may not represent the experiences of others who were involved.]
I first came across the NKT when I was given a paid for respite break by a local charity, at Manjushri Kadampa Meditation Centre near Ulverston. I knew nothing of the NKT’s reputation or indeed that there were Buddhist groups with a bad rep.
My impressions were good. I went to puja (prayers sung to simple tunes) nearly every day, read books in the library and tried out meditation. I guess not many people talked to me, but the ones who did were kind and gentle, and I was able to reach some very basic realisations about my life in Buddhist terms. It made good sense, I very much wanted more, and I asked if I could move in. Immediately and with little consideration I was told no, only very select students could live at that centre, but I might try smaller NKT centres elsewhere.
A little over two months later I moved into Chenrezig Centre in Lancaster city centre. I was allocated a room that was large, but had only a skylight to allow in daylight, and no adjustable ventilation – the room was baking hot in summer and freezing cold in winter. We were discouraged from using much heating to save the centre money, despite we were paying towards bills and some of us were also making a monthly donation, as well as buying things for the centre out of our own pockets.
After a few weeks as a resident I was asked by the financial director to give my laptop computer to the resident teacher of the centre. At the time I didn’t believe he could be serious, and I laughed it off. Now I’m sure he was.
I was put under a lot of pressure to make financial donations in indirect ways – to pay for new robes for the resident teacher, to pay for her and other residents to attend teachings at other centres, and such like. I was on disability benefits, and I must have given thousands of pounds to the NKT while I was a member, one way or another.
Despite all this, I was quite happy there for some time. I was appointed meditation room supervisor, which meant keeping it clean, putting out and removing chairs and cushions for pujas and teachings, and organising the more complex puja rituals. I attended both General Program (GP:basic) and Foundation Program (FP:intermediate) classes, and although I wasn’t always entirely happy with answers to my questions, I was persuaded to believe this was due to my inexperience as a Buddhist practitioner. I was told Geshe Kelsang was both a Buddha and my guru, and I accepted that as part of the conditions of belonging to the tradition. I had little idea what it meant or how to check it out, and we were discouraged from reading any books other than his. As with so many things, no one said you absolutely must not, but the usual phrase was, “Why would you want to?”.
Later the centre was to become divided. Neil Elliott, who had been Gen-la Thubten, moved in along with his wife, and he, the resident teacher and the financial director made a lot of decisions and changes that affected the rest of us, but in which we were allowed no part. NKT centres are definitely not democracies, and being a resident does not give you any say in what happens there.
After about 15 months I had a rough time with jetlag, following a trip to the US, where I had given a presentation on disability and spirituality. Despite my previous hard work and financial support of the centre, I was asked to leave. By now I had permission to take ordination as a nun, which had been granted on the condition of full support of my teacher, and now she was the main player in having me removed from the centre. A man living outside the centre was allocated to speed up my moving process, and within a short time I moved out to Bardsea, a village near Manjushri KMC. Manjushri still refused to consider me for residency, but I hoped that by being nearby and showing willingness and hard work, they might overlook my disabilities and allow me to move in.
Life in Bardsea was horribly lonely. The village is small, most people drive off to work all day, and those that are left are the elderly, who don’t go out much. I had hoped that going to Manjushri centre would be enough, but it turned out to be the icing on the cake of great loneliness. I was allocated cleaning jobs two mornings a week – toilets and the large dining room – and I came in faithfully to do these. Rarely did anyone talk to me, and I wonder if anyone even noticed I was doing the work. I went to puja every day, walking a half hour each way, and often no one really spoke to me there either. I attended the resident teacher’s GP class and the Sunday FP, which was where I got most of my interaction for the whole week.
Despite these bad experiences, I decided to go ahead and ordain. The time came, we had preparations the day before, and then the ceremony in the morning. I took my vows and went home after lunch, in my robes, back to my empty flat, with a certain sense of failure and thoughts of, what’s actually changed? I had heard from other people that the high of being ordained usually lasted a few weeks, but mine didn’t last a day. Still, I was determined I was going to be a good nun and continue to develop my mind in Buddhist ways. I was unprepared for how often I would feel a failure, and how I would still find myself questioning what the NKT and my guru Geshe Kelsang were doing.
Following summer festival, I applied to move to Losang Dragpa centre in Todmorden, West Yorkshire. I had been refused previously, but now that I was a new nun, and there were new people in key roles at LDC, I was accepted, and moved in October. This was just as well – as evenings began to draw in walking to Manjushri centre along unlit lanes with no pavements was beginning to feel very risky, though no one cared to check on my welfare when I didn’t attend. At LDC things were not always a smooth ride. My accommodation was two rooms in one of the blocks behind the castle – buildings that looked like run down council flats both outside and in. Our stairs had no carpet, just old flaking underlay, the buildings were barely heated, and in the cold, damp Yorkshire winter I had frequent colds and coughs I found hard to shake off.
Other things were quite well. I had frequent access to my FP teacher and occasional access to the resident teacher, who I admired very much – though it has to be said a lot of the residents didn’t like her because she hardly came out of her rooms.
My work for the centre was mainly ironing guest bedding and helping in the kitchen, as well as some time cleaning in the three meditation rooms. My disabilities were somewhat catered for in that I only had to work mornings, and I tended to get light duties during weekend events. It must be said that when I tried to get across the case for increasing disabled access to the centre I was told that disabled people never showed any interest in attending! There was a chalet building that had apparently been intended to be wheelchair accessible, but on knowledgeable inspection really wasn’t. The NKT attitude to disability is a misapplication of one of the ten conditions for a human life to qualify as precious (according to Tibetan Buddhism): no physical or mental afflictions. Disabled people naturally have more difficulty accessing teachings and NKT sees little reason to make it easier for them. I struggled with this complete lack of compassion throughout my time in the NKT.
I was aware that other centre residents had a much harder time than I did in some ways – many were working full time at low paid jobs in order to pay their rent, bills and buy basic food, and on top of that they had to spend a set number of hours each week working for the centre, plus most of us were getting up early to attend teachings from 7am to 9am two days a week. Stories abounded of how much good it had done some of our teachers to be exhausted to the point of crying throughout teachings and pujas through their excessive commitment to the centre.
On a day to day basis life at LDC was not easy, I still questioned things, but I took my ordination seriously, and tended to consider that this was as good as it gets. I was living in a large centre, attending teachings several times a week, and pujas daily, and what more could a new nun ask for? I did want to volunteer in the local community, but my resident teacher wouldn’t hear of it, and directed me to train to work on the centre’s reception desk instead.
Then, following summer festival 2007, our cold, damp “paradise” on the hill fell apart. The first I heard of it was when a lay woman resident I was friendly with came to talk to me – about her feelings concerning our resident teacher having suddenly announced she was leaving. Despite being a nun, I had not been told, and the news was at least two days old. I managed to see the teacher before she left, and later found out she was not honest with me. Scandal had fallen once more on the NKT – Gen-la Samden, a monk and very high teacher, had been having sexual relations with nuns and lay women in the name of tantric practice. My resident teacher was one of those nuns. I found out at this point that what Samden did was exactly the same as what Neil Elliott, also serving as Gen-la, had done some years previously, though when Elliott had moved to Chenrezig centre we were given a watered down version – that he had given back his vows in order to marry Diane.
Our little world fell apart quickly – within a couple days of our teacher leaving we were informed she wouldn’t be replaced, the centre was closed, we all had to move on. A letter was shown around, declaring the centre to be impure, and leaving us in turmoil. Were we, the residents, also impure? Were the teachings we had received there corrupt? No one came to help us or advise us. Later Gen-la Khyenrab, who had replaced Samden, said that sending someone to us in our time of need would have been like sending someone into a lion’s den. Both then and now my response to that is, didn’t the NKT have a Bodhisattva – a highly realised practitioner – in its ranks, who could have taken whatever was thrown at them, and helped lead us through the mess we were left in? It’s ironic that many of us had heard of centres being suddenly closed, but we never thought it would happen to us.
The next few weeks and months were very strange. Residents gradually left, most of them for other NKT centres – despite all that had happened! I applied for a couple of centres – Manjushri, and Madhyamaka near York. Both offered me a pre-residency working visit, then when I disclosed my disabilities both rejected me, despite my successful residency at LDC. I found myself directed to Nagarjuna centre in the Midlands. It sounded good – was known for taking people with disabilities, pets and/or children. I visited and found it completely isolated, with the format of the working day incompatible with making the long bus journey to town and back. It was rumoured that the resident teacher, a lay woman, was permitted to have a TV, which was absolutely banned in all other centres. There was something odd about the place, like a kind of dumping ground for NKT misfits where they could cause little trouble.
Around this time I really began to leave the NKT. I visited the FPMT centre (a similar but reputable Buddhist tradition) in Leeds, where I was accepted, NKT ordination and all, and treated with great compassion and respect. Ultimately I was to be unable to continue with the FPMT either due to the traumas caused by NKT; this was no fault of theirs.
I decided to remain a nun, wearing robes and keeping my vows, but trying to make a go of it on my own, on the edges of but not fully involved with other traditions. I moved out from the run down block behind the castle that used to house LDC, tried to keep up a practice, and failed, even despite attending FPMT weekly. In April I returned my robes, along with a letter returning my vows and expressing my disappointments, in a box posted to Geshe Kelsang. I knew by then not to expect a reply, and I never got one. I had been in NKT about three years, and a nun for around 21 months.
It’s three years now since I posted off my robes. I have changed and moved on but am still working to integrate my NKT experiences into anything coherent as a part of my history. It’s deeply confusing – there is so much potential good in the beautiful teachings of the Buddha, but the organisation warps them, bending them to maximise its financial profits and minimise its responsibilities to its members. Therefore when a person sees the light and leaves the NKT it is hard to trust again, hard to find the spiritual direction and fulfilment that we need, and that led us there in the first place.
I am left distrusting of ritual and of teachers, even when I have researched a group and found it to be reputable. I feel some desire to strike out on my own spiritual path, but I don’t know how to find it without some direction and the company of others going a similar way. In other words, I don’t trust groups or teachers, and I don’t trust my own judgement. This, for me, is the lasting legacy of my time in NKT.
I valued being a nun more than anything at the time, but now everything holy and pure seems suspect, even though the real difficulty was not that I was too impure for the NKT – but that I was actually too pure for them! I could not, and ultimately would not, rationalise their failure to practise what they preached. Therein lies the irony of being a NKT survivor.
Copyright: this essay may be forwarded by email or printed out in full. Permission is not given for publicly selectively quoting from this essay, or for full or partial publication on websites, blogs or for-profit publications, without the author’s explicit consent. If you do not know who the author is you must not use it for these purposes.
dear tenpel
I am sad to hear your story but would say simply keep your faith , but do not place it in mere human beings place your faith in the dharma ,in time it will repay your love and patience and bring you a pure teacher. keep up your refuge and take shelter at the feet of the holy beings , and remember to daily receive their blessings.
our refuge is for you too so you are with us allways, much love ratikala D.D.
ratikala
July 5, 2011 at 10:32 pm
Dear ratikala, its not my story. The story was sent to me with the request to post it. (Maybe I should have made this clear in the beginning of the post?) However, I appreciate your kind response. Love, t
tenpel
July 5, 2011 at 11:22 pm
The pattern of closing down centres when theye begin to attract too much scandal is one that is all too often repeated. This is possible when you set up centres on every paving stone in the UK-thise that fail-so what, screw the residents (It was their fault the centre collapsed and they are therefore eminently dispensable) just close the damned place down before things get any worse. The same thing happened at Todmorden
Anon
July 6, 2011 at 7:45 am
I am writing now in reply again to the story writen up by tenpel,in hope that any one suffering confusion or hurt after association with the N.K.T. or any similar organisation might gain some encoragement to continue their practicice and know that there is light at the end of the tunnel.
I will give a breif history of my own experience in hope to explain my thoughts and feelings about organisations.
during the late 80s I read a lot of tibetan bhuddism either translation from tibetan sources or from what I felt were genuine sources(,well respected tibetan masters,)
I read some western bhuddism but decided to stick to the original sources as they seemed to have more depth and presence.I allso went back to the original source and read the bhuddas teachings and naturaly started to apply what I understood in my daily life. some years on in a particularly difficult period of my life I decided to attend my first class, the N.K.T, had come to town ,I felt incredibly fortunate…I attended all of the classes on offer and at the end of the course ,without enough people attending no further classes were planed.So I followed them back to their center and attended there for some time dispite it being a long distance from my home which made it hard for me to attend as much as I would have liked and at that point I realy needed the association of other practitioners and needed to have guidance on a spiritual path , I attended for quite some time , felt fortunate to have the oppertunity to serve at a center and to attend classes and empowerments, I thought at the time that many of the N.K.T.members treated me with mild suspition because I diddent speak N.K.T.language so I decided not to disturb them by mentioning any outher teaching,instruction or advice however wonderfull which I felt was sad because I could not enthuse about any thing other than geshe la,s writing infront of any of them for fear that they might accidentaly dissrespect other equaly beautifull sources of dharma .equaly I saw and heard other things which saddened me and I began to feel very alone in a croud .I knew my days there were numbered ,I agreed in principle with geshe la,s teachings but not with the way they were being taught,I came to the realisation that,it was all done with the best intention, but that it was potentialy dangerous. I would have hapily taken ordination at that time but I just diddent feel it was the right time or place.
I wandered off and met more bhuddist groups and found nowhere where I was not either veived with suspition for having spent time with the N.K.T. or told that I needed to forget everything and start again with their system !…….
I could not do it, I could not un learn all the positive and well founded realisations which had happened allong the way .In short I decided that dharma was infalible and that saddly people were not, But keep taking refuge ,in fact refuge began to take on deeper and deeper meaning . I return repeatedly to the eight fold path,and keep on reminding my self 84,000 deluded states of mind …no wonder we find it difficult , But the key lay in the understanding of faith in the bhudda,s teaching,s not in the human beings that try to teach it , they are of course worthy of great respect even if only for their effort , but ultimately it is up to us to practice dharma.
p.s. (dont know how to save this and continue later!)so sending now finish thisevening much love ratikala
ratikala
July 6, 2011 at 8:19 am
Thank you Radikala.
I agree it is important to focus on the dharma and the meaning of it and not on groups and teachers. On the other hand a healthy community, reliable and honest spiritual friends as well as genuine Buddhist masters are almost indispensable for the spiritual journey because the spiritual path has many traps and the ego is just too tricky to not make oneself a fool.
Though I agree with your encouraging attitude, I do not agree that the dharma in NKT is given with the best intentions, this might be true in some cases or at times but the over all pattern is often far away from a genuine altruistic attitude.
Faithful followers are only the material—the human resources or capital—for the creation of the “pure” NKT empire which is felt as being higher, purer, more special than any other school of thought. These fantasies of being more authentic or more “pure” come directly from the mind of Kelsang Gyatso and they only show a world view that he himself, what he is doing, thinking, his views and actions are seen by himself as superior to other Buddhist monks, Geshes or even genuine Buddhist masters. He even attacks them of being degenerated and so forth. Its worth to read the excellent portrayal by David Kay how Kelsang Gyatso has undergone a personality change while being invited as one of two teachers in FPMT’s Manjushri Centre. There are reasons why he isolated himself, why he couldn’t accept anybody in his company who is equal or even higher than himself; there are reasons why he thinks only his own books are not confusing to his students while the books of others are potential dangerous to them; there are reasons why he thinks that all things outside his own ‘NKT empire’ are more or less “degenerated” and “impure”. Its just a view of personal superiority over others. If such a view is prevailing this view will create more deluded views and all those wrong views will defile the actions of the person and the result will be suffering both for oneself and others. But of course he thinks about himself that he has never done anything wrong, he is the “innocent” victim of the “evil” Dalai Lama and “disgruntled ex-members” or they are just jealous of him and what he has accomplished. But actual even this is an expression of a view of personal superiority because oneself is so special others must be jealous or they must have a bad intention to criticise oneself, they can’t be right, can they?
The driving force behind NKT and most of their leaders and teachers is nothing more than egoism or narcissism and what it has to offer is often only a defiled dharma, defiled by the mind poisons of ego-clinging, belief in inherent existent purity and inherent pure lineages, pride and sectarianism. I think what NKT has to offer is still somewhat spiritual food, but it is poisoned. Hungry dogs will greed for food like spiritual hungry Westerners greed for easy digestible spiritual food and NKT claims to offer it. When a hungry dog eats food it has the relief of the suffering of hunger (for a while and greeds for more food when it is hungry again) but if the food is poisoned the more the dog eats the more he also gets sick, then the dog has two effects: alleviation of suffering by eating food + an increase of bodily suffering due to the poison in the food. It is similar in NKT. But most people get confused when the signs of the poison appear in the mind, and NKT is telling them, it were “a purification process” or put the blame on them claiming that they would not practice purely or hard enough or that they lack merit etc and then they are encouraged to work harder for the NKT center… just recognize these patterns.
What NKT has accomplished is a type of spiritual materialism, the good intentions got lost on the way but they were there in the beginning and sometimes they glow up for a while but sooner or later they get lost, compassion got lost due to pride and feelings of self-importance.
Now leaving NKT is a hard job, and it could be helpful to have an analysis which is close to reality in order to be able to recover well. The problem I see with respect to continue with the Dharma is to extract the correct teachings given in NKT from the distorted ones and to see how NKT has defiled the own mind with feelings of superiority, pride, lack of compassion, feelings of guilt, fear etc. More over there is the damage (as portrayed above) how hard it is to rely again on others after this devastating experiences where one was mainly exploited and allowed others to exploit oneself. This legacy needs a lot of time and is hard to overcome, and, I think, this post NKT-burden must be faced if one wants to recover fully. But of course facing things needs time and also much compassion, acceptance and love for oneself—and good support from good friends.
tenpel
July 6, 2011 at 12:27 pm
I am the author of the account this thread is about … mostly I intend to keep out of the discussion, but I couldn’t help but notice tenpel wrote this:
“When a hungry dog eats food it has the relief of the suffering of hunger (for a while and greeds for more food when it is hungry again) but if the food is poisoned the more the dog eats the more he also gets sick, then the dog has two effects: alleviation of suffering by eating food + an increase of bodily suffering due to the poison in the food. It is similar in NKT.”.
That’s exactly, *exactly* what it’s like. You don’t know where to go for tood that isn’t poisoned because part of the effect of poison is to scare you away from pure sources. You get just enough of what is good to keep you going back for more, desparately, and convince yourself that it must be ok because some of it tastes truly amazing.
Thank you for that wonderful analogy, tenpel.
lifegoeson
July 6, 2011 at 1:18 pm
Happy to hear that this analogy is helpful! Thank you very much for your report. All the best! LifeGoesOn :-)
tenpel
July 6, 2011 at 1:28 pm
before I comment on last entrys I,ll finnish the account ,but I do need to clarify one thing when I say dharma I mean bhudda dharma and in no way mean n.k.t.bhudda dharma .
continued…..after trying various other groups mostly of tibetan origin but run by westerners(being that that was all that was available at that time) ,I allso became very wary of organisations as I discovered that the n.k.t. phenomena was allso happening in other centers allthough to a lesser degree ? if I dident feel comfortable I diddent stay long…
Again I felt that I wanted to find the sence of warmth , compassion and simplicity that I had read in books and heard in the teachings of the dalai lama,I remembered him saying “if you find this teaching usefull,then use it ,if not then its no problem,leave it,” the most wonderfull thing was that it was such a clear and lovingly articulated teaching that I am more than certain that everyone would have gained some benifit from it ,and with out any presure ,leaving us to decide the pace of our own progress on the path,but symultaniously very skillfull ! I wanted to be arround teachers like this who could judge the level of the aspirant and teach accordingly, I wanted to be arround people who had life long experience, and realised that was going to be hard to find . I allso realised at that point that my missgivings about the n.k.t. were correct ,most of the classes were given by students who had managed to memorise set teachings,and were as yet not fluent in their practice ,bodichitta is a fine ideal but experience in mind training is esential,we need to know the workings of our own minds and be master of our own thoughts , sences and emotions before we are fit to teach others. I wanted to be around people who wanted to master their ego,s , and who had some idea of the true value of humility ,I could see pit falls in the western approach to spirituality , I say well intentioned ,simply because I beleive our emotional understanding of bodhichitta caries us away far too fast with notions we canot fully comprehend , whilst the ego is left un checked.
after this uncomfortable realisation I found mysellf regularly visiting a thai temple , it was culturaly very different but extremely rewarding ,I found the monks easy to talk to ,refreshingly humble ,gentle in their nature, without trace of ego and funny we could laugh at our humanness finding a way along that path , giving support regardless of anyones race culture or tradition . I read the hinayana teachings over again and saw them in their cultural context , being practiced by both monks and the laiety. yet I could only take part as a member of the laiety and eventualy felt I wanted more envolvement, I became interested the more devotional aspects of faith and meeting some vaisnavite hindu,s I learnt that they regard bhudda as the 9th incarnation of visnu, finding allso that we shared so much in common was a huge releif I allso found many aspects which I felt I was missing and spent many years happily serving in the temple, again I was amongst people who were culturaly born in to a tradition and gently grow into their practice . In this situation I was fortunate enough to be introduced to the vedic literature ,which speaks of dharma as being both truth and duty , thus law to be respectedand executed. I was respected as both vishnavite and bhuddist symultaniously by most but most importantly the guru from whom I eventualy received initiation, there were some who thought their tradition superior and a few who told me I should think this or think that , so eventualy I learnt to carry out the dali lamas instructions to take what is of benifit and leave the rest , it is not easy ,but I am blessed to have received teachings on the eight fold path , right understanding dosent come over night it takes refuge , meditation,contemplation and practice, over and over again. we need to develop discriminating wisdom then we know what to take and what to leave , when to take it andwhen to leave it! Yes , association or sanga is very helpfull , but only good association or enlightened sanga . In my time at each center or temple I have come across good and bad nature both in the comunity and in the management ,it is a failing in human nature or more a weakness , I am not in any way justifying any n.k.t. behavior but saying if it is found to be faulty do as we have done and walk away, I am how ever sugesting that some how some positive lesson can be taken from all situations with out the need to criticise , dicect or outline every failing, I could say with justification that I have been subject to all sorts of painfull situations but I,m trying to practice non attatchment , I,m not saying its o.k ! I,m saying I have learnt how to let go and be realy happy , dispite all the noncence ,to forgive and to learn ! Sanga and dharma friends are a great bonus , a blessing , but realisation is a personal thing , The example buddha set was one of realization through meditation what I,m sujesting is if in doubt go back to bhudda,s original teachings , go back to hinayana teachings , the highs that come from mahayana idealsare dangerous unless there is a firm foundation ‘hinayana’!!! nobody at n.k.t. told you that because nobody knew , I am telling you because I found that it works, I am only sujesting that you try it , if you find it usefull then addopt it , if its not not to your liking its ok ,leave it !
with love and best wishes may you find peace and equinimity ratikala.
ratikala
July 6, 2011 at 11:03 pm
Thank you Radikala. You’ve made really a lot—and at times painful—effort to dive into the depths of spirituality. Wonderful! (Actual the spiritual path is nothing easy and at times it can be very painful.) I agree also without basis there is no Mahayana. And I am happy to hear that you learned to let go, to be really happy and to forgive. Reading what you’ve written it appears to me that you have found what you were looking for and you would like to encourage others on their spiritual journey. Is it like this?
One question: Why are you writing “Dali Lama”, this is a phrasing of the name of the Dalai Lama I’ve only encountered by enraged Shugden followers who used this misspelling to express their feelings of dislike. Maybe it was a typing error?
tenpel
July 7, 2011 at 10:06 pm
Dear Lifegoeson,
I read your essay with tremendous sadness. I hope and pray that the NKT has heard your voice and voices like yours and been able to change in such a way that tales such as this need never be repeated.
It’s clear for example that although you dearly loved your ordination, you were not well prepared to take such a step. As I read of your doubts and uncertainities about Geshe-la, about the practice of relying on a spiritual guide, about the nature and purpose of NKT – my heart called out for some wise voice in those past days to guide you and protect you. I apologise if I sound rude, but you had so much confusion and misunderstanding of central and vital subjects that your next step to become ordained was in my naive opinion a sure recipie for disaster. It is the responsibility of senior teachers to protect the likes of you and I at such a time.
Of course it looks like you were failed in many other more material respects. I am very sorry for that.
You have my deepest love and sympathy and I wish and pray that you quickly find the deep happiness you absoloutely deserve.
Robert
Robert Thomas
July 6, 2011 at 9:41 pm
Sorry Robert, indeed for me it sounds very “rude” that you claim that LGO “had so much confusion and misunderstanding of central and vital subjects”. It could be the writer has far more wisdom, clarity, compassion, honesty and courage—and especially a sense for spirituality—than you.
What would you think if I say to you:
How does it feel to read this?
Actual I approved your comment without reading it but I think this was a mistake because the blog should not serve as a basis to harm those harmed by NKT again. For me your approach is hitting the mistreated again by putting the person down as confused, and then you elevate yourself as a compassionate person. This is exactly the way of NKT: putting others down, elevating oneself as somewhat superior. Awake!
PS: To see one of the positive sides of what you’ve written, your intuition is good when you fear that you sound rude. I don’t mean this in a sarcastic sense, you really had a correct doubt to write this. But something else propelled you to go against of what your intuition told you. (At least this is my impression here.)
tenpel
July 6, 2011 at 11:08 pm
Btw Tenzin – your rephrasing of my post to me doesn’t make sense because it is written from the assumption that I have been hurt or damaged by my NKT experience. However after 15 years – I have yet to experience anything other than deep appreciation for all that I have gained from my contact with the NKT and their study programs, books, sangha etc.
With best wishes
Robert
Robert Thomas
July 7, 2011 at 12:30 pm
Dear Tenzin
I realise its a fine line and I am sorry if I have in any way added to the distress of Lifegoeson. My intention however was to critique the NKT, not the person. And I readily agree that the writer has far more wisdom, compassion, spirtituality and courage than me.
What I expect is that the NKT is better than it shows itself here. The NKT have a responsibilty to check that those wishing to take the profound step of taking Buddhist ordination also have a clear understanding of what that means in terms of their Buddhist understanding. The qualitiies you mention of wisdom, compassion, spirtuality, courage etc are not uniquely Buddhist, but Buddhist ordination, Guru Yoga practice and so forth are. NKT must at least validate the specifically Buddhist aspects of its ordained Sangha. To give two examples:
1. “I was told Geshe Kelsang was both a Buddha and my guru, and I accepted that as part of the conditions of belonging to the tradition”
If a view like this was encouraged and not corrected through the many clear and correct instructions on Guru Yoga which are avaialbe in NKT books, then what Je Tsongkhapa called the root of the path, was fundamentally wrong, so all of the Buddhist practices and realisation which depend on this root will not have strength to survive and bear fruit . Viewing a teacher as Buddha, and viewing a teacher as one’s spirtual guide are both intensely personal views and at the very least they are not validly establsihed on the basis of another persons view or on the basis that it is a pre-requitstie for belonging to a group.
2. “By now I had permission to take ordination as a nun, which had been granted on the condition of full support of my teacher, and now she was the main player in having me removed from the centre.”
This condition was clearly not fulfilled by the NKT. It was a wise and good condition, however the NKT let her down by not keeping its side of the Oridination conditions.
I know the NKT can do and be much better than it was for Lifegoeson. I know that from my own and many firend’s experiences. What I hope is that the NKT can find a way to show the best of itself to everyone and that it doesn’t fail other people in the way it has failed Lifegoeson.
With very best wishes
Robert
Robert Thomas
July 7, 2011 at 8:07 am
Dear Robert, thank you for your response, and your openness to clarify some points.
I agree with “The NKT have a responsibilty to check that those wishing to take the profound step of taking Buddhist ordination also have a clear understanding of what that means in terms of their Buddhist understanding.” and for me here the problem already starts because NKT—and especially Kelsang Gyatso—do not care correctly and in a nourishing manner for their ordainees. It starts with that there are no clear explanations when a vow is broken, when it is not broken, it is wrongly claimed this type of Rabjung ordination would be a vow whereas it is not. It is wrongly told that one cannot attain enlightenment if one disrobes, it is not explained that one can disrobe and how one actual does it and that it is ok to disrobe, and that it is not a crime, on top of it it is wrongly claimed one can carry the vows into the next life etc. The complete setting in NKT for ordainees is confusing, ambigious, unclear, and leads to a lot of distress instead of clarity. The problem gets bigger for ordainees because they are asked to work hard for the centres and most do not have enough space and time for working on their mind and to look inwardly. I do not want to go into detail but if there is someone “confused” about ordination it is NKT and its leader. This does not exclude that there are also ordainees who are confused but how can you expect clarity if the leadership is confused?
“What I expect is that the NKT is better than it shows itself here.”
I doubt this.
“The NKT have a responsibilty to check that those wishing to take the profound step of taking Buddhist ordination also have a clear understanding of what that means in terms of their Buddhist understanding. The qualitiies you mention of wisdom, compassion, spirtuality, courage etc are not uniquely Buddhist, but Buddhist ordination, Guru Yoga practice and so forth are. NKT must at least validate the specifically Buddhist aspects of its ordained Sangha.”
NKT ordination has nothing really to do with Buddhist ordination, NKT ordainess are not even considered to be novice monks or nuns and therefore are not part of the monastic order.
This view is encouraged strongly in NKT! And also Kelsang Gyatso encourages it. It was also told to me, and many others have and had the same experiences. Don’t “the many clear and correct instructions on Guru Yoga which are avaialbe in NKT books” state that one’s Guru MUST be a Buddha and that the Spiritual Guide (Kelsang Gyasto) is your Guru. How could LGO get another understanding than what she reveals here within NKT? Aren’t these the conditions to follow NKT? They are. So what is confused in LGO? She is only expressing what actual is put into the mind by NKT teachings of someone who follows the NKT. Also you seem to be unaware of the fact that NKT deceitfully bring people into their group by first giving them ease, “don’t worry, just go to the HYT empowerments”, “don’t worry about the vows” etc, and then new people learn afterwards, now Geshe-la is their root guru and if they leave the root guru or are negative towards him, they will go to hell? These “intensely personal views” form a main part of the NKT teachings not only this, if you don’t see Geshe-la as a Buddha, then no blessing, no realizations, you will stay empty handed. Who then does not want to “believe” he is a Buddha and “my Guru”? The NKT setting is very complex and it functions also by what is not said, how things are said, what is correctly and wrongly stated, what unspoken rules and beliefs there are or what is established by Geshe-la’s extremely skilful indirect speech. So instead of blaming LGO of confusion maybe the confusion you see in her writings is only what she learned in NKT and it is just a reflection of NKT’s confusion? Or you project confusion onto her because NKT must be right and who moves away from NKT must be wrong in one way or another?
I can only agree with good wishes. But to improve things one must see the own faults first, and openly speak about them. Also one needs time for introspection which is undermined by the rushy busy attitude of NKT to spread worldwide the NKT and KG’s books. The covering up attitude of NKT is also not very supportive for improvements. However, may things develop into a good direction.
Thank you Robert,
t
tenpel
July 8, 2011 at 6:29 pm
Hi Ratikala and Robert, I approved both of your comments without reading it. I will read and reply this evening but maybe there are others who like to do that—its always good to have different angles.
(I just realized Robert that your first name is Robert and not Thomas and corrected this in my reply above, sorry for this!)
Very best t
tenpel
July 7, 2011 at 8:23 am
Dear Tenzin
I don’t agree that there is confusion from Geshe-la about the vows. I think you find it confusing because they are not the same as the vows you have taken and that are traditionally given in the Tibetan tradition. They are different although the purpose is the same as the purpose of Buddhist ordination dating back to the time of Buddha.
As you know Buddha only developed the Gelong etc vows gradually in response to specific problems in the Sangha, the first monks took no such vows, they simply took ordination on the basis of their renunciation -the promise to attain liberation, and therefore naturally abandoned activities that didn’t lead to that attainment. It is clear that injunctions in the vows you have taken, like not to touch money, not to be alone with a woman, not to put rice on top of curry etc are not the meaning of ordination, but instead were rules coming from specific events during Buddha’s life time which if unchecked created disharmony and distracted the Sangha from their main purpose. NKT vows follow this same spirit (and I think the Moral Discipline guide of the Constitution has a similar purpose to these Gelong vows in uniting the NKT sangha in a common code of conduct, maintaining harmony and keeping focus on their main purpose).
DISROBED GO TO HELL IS NOT AN NKT TEACHING
You are wrong that people are taught in NKT that those who have disrobed will go to hell or that they cannot attain enlightenment. Where? When? By who?
This teaching that breaking certain vows leads to lower rebirth can be found in traditional texts such as Shatideva’s guide, but it is qualified very clearly in the NKT commentaries. For example Shatideva says, and I paraphrase, “If having looked deeply and decided firmly to become a Buddha for the sake of all (taken actual Bodhisattva vows), if you then abandon that wish, you accumulate the negative karma of abandoning those same (all) living beings” And it is easy to understand the the karmic impact on a persons mind of rejecting such a virtuous mind will clearly be negative and equally as powerful as the original wish. Shantideva says it causes lower rebirth and prevents enlightenment for many aeons, with the caveat that “Only Buddha can know how this might not be possible” – referring to the story of Shariputra.
However, anyone studying NKT texts also knows that Bodhichitta has two aspects, Aspiring and Engaging and Shantideva here refers to Engaging bodhichitta. Also our texts explain that Shatideva is referring to the spontaneous and continuous wish to become a Buddha stabilized by the deep insight attained when we complete the second Mahayana path, the path of preparation. He is not referring to the momentary thought that sometimes arises for a few minutes, hours or even days, which is a type of fabricated or simulated Bodhichitta.
Similarly you know the karmic consequence of abandoning renunciation will be strong obstructions in that same mental continuum to develop it again in the future. Hence the person who has abandoned renunciation will of course continue to wonder in samsara, inevitably that will include hell realms. The same is true of abandoning refuge etc. This is normal Buddhist view and actually doesn’t only apply to ordained people or even Buddhists. This is simply the tragic truth Buddha revealed.
THE SKILL & COMPASSION OF NKT ORDINATION VOWS
In his Ordination teachings Geshe-la is very clear how the vows transform depending on the realizations of the person taking them and if you look in the book, Bodhisattva vow, you can also see a short explanation of the corresponding “levels” of ordination, such as Getsul etc that the monk or nun attains as their minds change. He explains that each person taking ordination needs to look at their own mind to understand the level of vows they take. This process of knowing your own mind is the very essence of Buddhist practice.
I think this is also wonderful because the vows really become internal and not a potential basis for the delusion of pride etc that could come from feeling “I am a Gelong I am superior to a Getsul or a Rabjung” etc. When as I mentioned, really not handling money for example is nothing in itself to protect us from lower rebirth or to enable us to help others.
The NKT ordination vows are very kind because they accord with the mental scope of each person and the consequences of abandoning them are only as strong as the corresponding realizations which are also rejected. At the same time they allow everyone who wishes to practice within the framework of ordination to do so, even if they don’t yet hold minds such as renunciation, which are the real basis for ordination.
CONSEQUENCE OF DISROBING IN NKT TEACHINGS
Because Geshe-la gives very clear teachings about what constitutes different realizations, in books like Understanding the Mind, Joyful Path, Heart of Wisdom, Bodhisattva vow, Meaningful to Behold etc if we are honest with ourselves we can be left in no doubt as to whether or not we actually posses, refuge, renunciation, bodhichitta and so forth. Knowing our mind and understanding karma we can also understand the karmic results that come from any mind we develop and its consequent action, such as disrobing. We can judge if our actions are virtuous or non virtuous based on our own wisdom and study of Karma, delusions, virtuous minds etc. I can imagine in certain very rare cases disrobing might be a wise and skilful action – at least such a possibility exists in the theoretical framework of Buddha’s teachings. So there is no fixed view in NKT on what happens if you disrobe.
CARRYING ORDINATION TO FUTURE LIVES
NKT ordination is given on the basis of a Mahayana view, not the traditional Hinayana view. Because of this if the person develops stable Bodhichitta it is possible to carry the vows into future lives, just as you know that Bodhisattva vows can also be carried to future lives. The teaching of carrying these vows to future lives is not true for all NKT ordained, it refers to those who actually develop spontaneous stable Bodhichitta on at least the path of Seeing. Again, only the individual can know for themselves if this is the case.
Of course I am praising the good qualities of NKT ordination, but I am not saying that the traditional vows don’t also have tremendous and immeasurable good qualities, they clearly do as my own lineage of teachers can testify!
GURU YOGA
Regarding viewing the teacher as Buddha – this view is common in all Buddhist schools with the qualification that non Mahayana schools might teach “like a Buddha” to the Vajrayana view, “Is a Buddha”. NKT teachings are consistent with these views and never teach that you must hold this view because someone else tells you or that it is a requirement to belong to the group!
It is clear that you cannot truly call your self a particular thing without the correct basis. You are not a Buddhist if you don’t hold the 3 jewels as your refuge (meaning in my case, if i’m honest, sometimes I am a Buddhist and sometimes not!) Of course in general its simple and conventionally true to call myself all the time, Buddhist – and this means I say “I go for refuge to the three Jewels”, but I know the label is not so important as my actual view!
Similarly, in general to hold someone as a Buddhist teacher, be it Dalai Lama, Lama Zopa or Geshe Kelsang, the group must identify them at some level as representing or even being Buddha. Individuals in that group will then be encouraged to train in seeing them in that way according to the instruction on being a qualified discipleas described in Maitreya’s commentary to the Perfection of Wisdom sutras. However, this conventional identification is not the same as really holding that view, or forcing others to hold it. Nonetheless it persists because it is an easy label helping it identify and designate the function of respective buddhist organisatins. Its impossible to count the number of times you will read Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara or Rinpoche is the incaration of such and such a master or Buddha etc. Such descriptions are wide spread in all Buddhist groups.
VAJRAYANA VIEW
The view that the teacher is Buddha is especially taught in the Tantras. But you are not really a Vajrayana disciple even if you take hundreds of Tantric empowerment. The actual Vajrayana depends on actually viewing your teacher as a Buddha in a very specific and qualified way as taught in the Tantras.
NKT is very realistic about this, and teaches that this view is a very highly accomplished one and takes many years and a profound insight into both conventional and ultimate Bodhichitta to really posses. At the same time, it teaches how to gradually train in developing this view – in fact not just of the teacher but of everyone.
ROOT GURU
To view some one as your root guru is described as potentially taking many years to develop (see Joyful Path), it also depends on investigating carefully and coming to the conclusion for oneself that a teacher posses the qualifications of being our Spiritual Guide – again this is extensively described in Joyful Path and Great Treasury of Merit. Also no one tells you who is your root guru and nowhere in NKT literature is it explained how some one could do so – its just not possible.
NKT says, “Everybody welcome” and I have met many people from other Buddhist teachers and even ordained people from other traditions who attend NKT teachings and empowerments. There is no suggestion that now Geshe Kelsang is their Root Guru! That is absurd!
I am not an expert but these are the general and very summarized objections to your view.
Also, thank you to you Tenzin for clearly and politely sharing your views.
With very best wishes – and sorry to write so much!
Robert
Robert Thomas
July 9, 2011 at 12:46 pm
Dear Robert, I have no time to read your replies but it is sure we cannot find common ground. The lack of a basis for common ground starts already with the first sentence of you:
“I don’t agree that there is confusion from Geshe-la about the vows.”
For sure there is confusion from Geshe-la about the vows. The amount of confusion which manifests is amazing if one thinks he claims to hold a Geshe title and he should know it better. There is no Vinaya and no monastic vows coming from the Perfection of Wisdom Sutra and there is no ordination according to Geshe Potowa as he wrongly claimed here and there. Also the statement at the NewKadampaTruth.org site is just ridiculous:
“The NKT ordination follows the tradition of ordination explained by Geshe Potowa and other Kadampa Geshes. According to this system, it is the level of renunciation that determines the level of ordination, not how many vows you hold. In NKT ordination, a monk or a nun becomes ‘fully ordained’ (Gelong or Bhikshu (monk), Gelongma or Bhikshuni (nun)) by holding the ten vows of ordination and having developed the realization of renunciation, that is, having developed the spontaneous wish for liberation such that it is ever-present in the mind, day and night.”
Everybody who has enough knowledge about the Vinaya or Tibetan Buddhism would agree if I say that a claim about “the tradition of ordination” or “system” “explained by Geshe Potowa and other Kadampa Geshes” is utter non-sense. This paragraph is one of the many “master spins” of NKT, a good mix of semi-truths with untruths and some truths.
In general I think it is also not a good idea to deprecate the old Kadampa masters and their teachings and reputation by abusing their stainless name and applying it to to the NKT. I feel this to be shameless and for me it shows a real lack of admiration and humility with respect to the old Kadampa masters. NKT was able to defile the old Kadampas by abusing their name and giving a very distorted idea about what the Kadampas really did and practised. (Most of NKT do not even know what they really studied…) Of course the Kadampas can not complain and it is unlikely that they would complain if their lineage and practitioners still existed, they are just too humble….
tenpel
July 11, 2011 at 10:02 am
Dear Robert, first of all, thank you for your time. But also thanking you for hinting me the excellent book by David Kay on NKT. It was of tremendous help to understand NKT better and from a more balanced point of view. Since you have helped me a lot I was thinking it is quite unkind to not to respond to your long comment. So I will respond now. Thank you for the opportunity.
you said:
“I don’t agree that there is confusion from Geshe-la about the vows. I think you find it confusing because they are not the same as the vows you have taken and that are traditionally given in the Tibetan tradition. They are different although the purpose is the same as the purpose of Buddhist ordination dating back to the time of Buddha.”
The difficult point here is, that the NKT vows partly belong to the Tibetan tradition but that Geshe-la has put a spin on the facts and that his followers, including you, lack proper knowledge about the Vinaya and the three existing lineages for ordination which are rooted in history and the time of the Buddha. In one way or the other Geshe-la and you must agree that this type of explanation is new, has no real basis in history and Buddha’s teachings. It is superficially constructed they would be based on Geshe Potowa but this again is incorrect as I have discussed here on the blog yet.
Interesting in that context is, that in the past Geshe-la emphasized the “purity” of lineage to follow exactly as the past masters have taught it but he himself treats the lineage in a rather arbitrary way to just fit it into his world view or abilities. The NKT ordination is not dating back to the time of the Buddha, the novice and full ordination vows are known and the NKT ordination does not fit into either of these two categories. This is very clear.
You said:
“As you know Buddha only developed the Gelong etc vows gradually in response to specific problems in the Sangha, the first monks took no such vows, they simply took ordination on the basis of their renunciation -the promise to attain liberation, and therefore naturally abandoned activities that didn’t lead to that attainment. It is clear that injunctions in the vows you have taken, like not to touch money, not to be alone with a woman, not to put rice on top of curry etc are not the meaning of ordination, but instead were rules coming from specific events during Buddha’s life time which if unchecked created disharmony and distracted the Sangha from their main purpose.”
So far this is correct. And the Buddha gave permission that the assembly of the fully ordained Sangha can change the minor vows according to the situation and society. But this has never happened because their was no common agreement among the majority of the elder Sangha what are the minor vows and what can be changed. That a single person (one who has not any support of the monastic order), like Kelsang Gyatso can change the rules is not accepted and it is highly controversial and uncommon. Contrary to Kelsang Gyatso, the Dalai Lama has respect for the Vinaya of the Buddha, which stresses the importance that major decision must be made by the majority of the fully ordained Sangha. By what rights can KG ignore this procedure? Is he above the Vinaya and the Sangha? He is not. He is isolated from them.
You said:
“NKT vows follow this same spirit (and I think the Moral Discipline guide of the Constitution has a similar purpose to these Gelong vows in uniting the NKT sangha in a common code of conduct, maintaining harmony and keeping focus on their main purpose).”
These are not really vows as I have pointed out on the blog recently: http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/nkt-ordination-clarifying-more-misunderstandings/
Because the NKT monastics do not know the Vinaya they ignored the decision of the elder Sangha and contributed to disharmony by going publicly against the decision of the majority of the fully ordained Sangha abusing the word “religious freedom” and accusing the Dalai Lama of being a “liar”. That people who are not even members of the order wear the robes of Buddhist monks and go against the community decision is a strange incident in history and it is in violence of the Vinaya. To speak here of harmony is quite a strange approach. I elaborated on this point already in the WSS article on my website. No need to go here in more details.
You said:
“DISROBED GO TO HELL IS NOT AN NKT TEACHING
You are wrong “that people are taught in NKT that those who have disrobed will go to hell” or that they cannot attain enlightenment. Where? When? By who?”
Robert, what are you doing? When did I say that NKT claims that disrobed NKT people go to hell or NKT says so? I can not remember of having said so, please prove your accusation first. I am trying always to be very precise and as so often I am accused of having said things which I did not say. So please give a prove of what you are claiming that I would have said “that people are taught in NKT that those who have disrobed will go to hell”. I did not say this. I said that “it is wrongly told that one cannot attain enlightenment if one disrobes”, and this is true, Geshe-la himself said it during an ordination talk, I know a smart and reliable person who was present when he said this and who made notes. Soon there will be more publication about this point. I will keep you updated when the paper has been published.
It is clear that breaking the vows can lead to lower rebirth if these faults are not purified diligently. The good point is since NKT ordination is not a real ordination with real vows it is less dangerous for NKT ordainees if they break their rules than for novices or fully ordained ones with real monk or nun vows.
I think it is not too important that I reply here to the points you are hinting from Shantideva. They have not too much to do with the ordination. Ordination is discussed in the Vinaya, this is one of three baskets which summarise the Buddha’s teachings. This basket, the first one, is absent in the NKT. I wonder how foolish one can be (as NKT and Tharpa do) to claim that Kelsang Gyatso has for the first time introduced “the complete path to enlightenment in a Western language”. This is only wrong and embarrassing.
you said:
“Similarly you know the karmic consequence of abandoning renunciation will be strong obstructions in that same mental continuum to develop it again in the future. Hence the person who has abandoned renunciation will of course continue to wonder in samsara, inevitably that will include hell realms.”
Can you tell me how one can abandon renunciation? If renunciation was a superficial wish one might abandon it. But since it was only superficial the karmic results might not be too destructive. If one has real renunciation one develops even renunciation of renunciation — if you look from the ultimate pov. All these teachings of keeping up virtuous states of mind and to avoid to abandon them, I think, should be seen rather on an educational level. This threatening of the hells might make the mind too tight. In one way or the other until one has not attained the forbearance level of the Bodhisattva path of preparation one can not be sure to not be born in the hell, therefore instead of threatening too much with the hells one should inspire to keep up positive attitudes like compassion which will one even help in hell. Not only a Zen teacher who runs a hospice reported recently that Buddhist seem to die more in worry and unpeace than non-Buddhists because they put too much fear into the hell issue. I think this is quite counter-productive and not the meaning of the teachings.
You write:
“THE SKILL & COMPASSION OF NKT ORDINATION VOWS
In his Ordination teachings Geshe-la is very clear how the vows transform depending on the realizations of the person taking them…”
You claim this would be skill, Geshe-la claims they would transform etc. but where is a scriptural authority, a sutra, or a Vinaya passage which sustains such a claim? One can claim always something but the person who claims must prove what he claims by giving reliable sources. The only thing which is correct in that context is that if one becomes an Arhat one is a “natural bhikshu or bhikshuni” due to the purity of the mind. This is backuped by scriptures. If it were like KG claims than because Dromtönpa was a lay person who had renunciation in his mind and who had the 5 lay vows including the vow of celibacy—like NKT people have—he would have been a fully ordained monk, while he was not.
You said:
“I think this is also wonderful because the vows really become internal and not a potential basis for the delusion of pride etc that could come from feeling “I am a Gelong I am superior to a Getsul or a Rabjung” etc. When as I mentioned, really not handling money for example is nothing in itself to protect us from lower rebirth or to enable us to help others.”
I see nothing good in distorting the facts to defend a self-made system which is not in accordance with the Dharma / the Vinaya. I also wonder why someone who is a gelong or gestul has a potential basis of having pride, actual a gelong is a beggar, there is nothing to be proud of. Everybody has a potential basis to have pride, why not giving up everything because it is a potential basis of pride? Isn’t the super special NKT ordination also a potential basis of pride? Because of this following your logic you or NKT should give up this system. Also NKT is “a potential basis for the delusion of pride etc that could come from feeling “I am a pure Kadampa I am superior to a Tibetan Buddhist pracitioner”, so it follows, one should give up NKT as NKT has given up the full and the novice ordination because is “a potential basis of pride.”
The vows are a very good basis to progress on the path to enlightenment, and the were taught by the Buddha who is considered in Mahayana to be omniscient and to know even the most subtle aspects of karma. Atisha had them, Je Tsongkhapa had them, the Dalai Lama and most of my teachers have them. So why creating something new when one claims to “uphold” the tradition of Je Tsongkhapa or Atisha? This is only a pot of contradictions.
(Sorry, I have to stop here due to other activities.)
Still, very best, t
We’ll see what the future will bring.
(I assume some power struggles in the NKT leadership. This might be already on its way as I heard recently with respect to Pema (Helen G.), the former assistant of KG.)
tenpel
July 12, 2011 at 5:20 pm
Dear Tenzin
Firstly i’m glad that David Kaye’s book was a help to you. Also, I enjoyed very much the feeling behind your comments on the humility of the Old Kadampa masters – such wonderful examples, I am glad you also appreciate them – even if our opinions of what they would do now differ. Your comment on their humility was really spot on and a great teaching.
I won’t comment much on several points, but here’s a brief coverage of those I will otherwise miss. First, I apologise for confusing your hell rebirth reference with breaking ordination – you said it was taught as the consequence of breaking tantric vows, not ordination. Again the answer is not that straightforward and I refer you to the teaching on Karma in Joyful Path to understand NKT view.. Also you refer to the WSS protests as one consequence of not following traditional ordination, but that issue goes beyond the scope of this discussion, and anyway even those who do hold all the Gelong Vows attended these protests. For me also this situation is tragic, but my view is probably opposite to yours and we know that you and I are highly unlikely to ever reach agreement on this point. (And sadly I suppose nor on many other points!) But I hope you know I train in and aspire towards Renunciation, Bodhichitta and Correct view of emptiness, just as I know you do. I hope we can respect each other’s practice as far as these incredible and wonderful shared goals and values are concerned.
Regarding the Vinaya, you are correct I have never studied it and it is not taught in NKT, as Geshe-la said in his inaugural talk to Foundation programme:
“For one thing, most western Dharma students are lay people and so they cannot study the Vinaya, which is one of the five subjects studied by Tibetan Geshes”
However, I understand that the heart of the Vinaya is Pratimoksha moral discipline. Clearly NKT teaches what is moral discipline, when it is broken, how to train in keeping it, improve it etc. This is explained in the Lamrim. If it is true that Milarepa, Dromtonpa and so forth attained enlightenment without taking ordination, then it is true that Geshe Kelsang’s books reveal the complete path to enlightenment, because all the attainments, abandonments and paths that these two masters followed are explained in the Lamrim. Please note, presenting the complete path to enlightenment is different than saying that they present all of Buddha’s teachings (although implicitly they in fact do).
I fully agree that NKT ordination is different to the lineages you mention. Is it new? Geshe-la refers to Geshe Potowa and states that we follow Mahayana view of Vows as opposed to the Hinayana view which is held in the Vinaya lineages. It is for scholars to decide if its new, but from a practical point of view, it makes complete sense to me that it neither contradicts nor is in a different sprit to the purpose of the Vinaya. . I also note from Wikipedia that in Japan ordination also seems to follow the Mahayana view, so there is a precedent… but this is way to scholarly for me!
You say that NKT ordained vows are not really vows, but for me this is your confusion because you try to explain the NKT ordination according to your Ordination, which I understand is based on the Hinayana view that a vow is physical form and therefore requires specific rituals if that vow is to change from Rabjung to Gelong for example. Ours are based on the Mahayana view that a vow is a mind. So you can’t really mix those two views witout confusion. What they share is that both require a preceptor and that they are taken on the basis of refuge in the 3 Jewels. There is nothing “not in accordance with the Dharma” with this. Nor do NKT vows contradict the Vinaya ordained Pratimoksha vows as one article on NKT truth clearly shows (http://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/answering-those-who-disparage-the-nkt-ordination-part-one/) . As Geshe-la explains, in the Mahayana a vow is type of mind, whilst in Hinayana it is physical form. Because we follow the Mahayana view, it is also possible for the vows to change as the mind changes without the need for a separate ceremony. There is no confusion fi we don’t try to mix systems.
You are right that I overstate the point about Pride in one’s vows. I accept more or less completely your points there. Also I find your discussion about what stops Dromtonpa being considered fully ordained fascinating – but I can’t contribute anything to it. I am curious to know your answer though? What for you is the purpose and point and distinction of being Ordained? How do you answer Geshe-la’s question about not breaking the 253 viows like not to touch money, hug your mother etc etc? What is the special teaching and application of the Vinaya which you don’t find in Lamrim? Inspire me
Lastly, regarding hell. I agree it’s a teaching that must be handled carefully and found the experience of the Zen teacher very touching and prescient – one to avoid!. But, did you also know that there are actually only two explicit Hell realm teachings in all Geshe-la’s books? One is of course being the required chapter in the Lamrim (but only in Joyful Path – all other Lamrim books, Transform your Life, Modern Buddhism and Meditation Handbook, only refer to it by no more than name and give animal rebirths as a suggested example for meditation). The other book being Meaningful to Behold where it is Shantideva more than Geshe-la who makes explicit reference, Shantideva’s guide is however universally taught in all Tibetan traditions. So, I think NKT also doesn’t emphasize this meditation.
Well – we could go on indefinitely so I will stop now! But thank you as always for your discussion and sharing your views. I only wish you were more constructive and encouraging, because I wonder if your actions harm the spiritual lives of many people by destroying what joy they may have developed in Buddha’s teachings? Of course you think the opposite, that you save people? I don’t know! Either Geshe-la is a visionary like Martin Luther and we are witnessing the classic struggle of the new as it clashes with the old order or he’s a phony. Only time and the realizations or lack there of of his students can tell.
With best wishes always
Robert
Robert Thomas
July 13, 2011 at 8:51 am
I have expected comments like Robert’s, from people still in NKT. Clearly for some they never directly experience enough of the negative side of NKT that they are happy to continue, even when they know how poorly it treats others. To me this is part of the poison that runs throughout the organisation, and I’m sad to see it still going on, though of course I knew it was.
I know enough people who experienced enough suffering via the organisation that I am not swayed in any way by the way NKT always says it has changed for the better – it was saying this before I was a member, after Elliott disrobed, now after Samden has disrobed … it is just a way to try to invalidate the experiences some of us feel it is beneficial to share, both to help and support those who have been through it (and I’ve had lots of positive feedback from such people) and to warn those thinking of joining to please take care and reserve your judgement for a while, don’t be persuaded to ignore the wrong that goes on in favour of the buzz you may get in puja and suchlike.
For those who choose to stay, I just ask them to be aware of the suffering the group causes others, and keep checking their conscience: is this really something you want to condone and perpetuate? One of the ways NKT keeps many of us for the time it does is lack of information – and no one can make good choices without enough information. This essay is a way to give you a little more information. What you do with it is up to you. There are reputable places to receive the same teachings, if you want to, though for many NKT is the most easily available. The Buddha emphasised you have choices.
lifegoeson
July 7, 2011 at 2:56 pm
Thank you LGO.
tenpel
July 7, 2011 at 9:47 pm
Dear Lifegoeson,
I’m sorry that you suffered during your time in the NKT, but that doesn’t mean that this is the experience of everyone or that the NKT causes suffering to others. I feel you are seeing an inherently harmful NKT but most people are very happy with the tradition and are deriving great benefit from it. In any organization there are people who are unhappy, have unpleasant experiences, and eventually leave because it doesn’t suit them, and then there are others who are very happy, have wonderful experiences and stay with it for the rest of their lives. Everyone has different karma.
I do wish you all the best in your spiritual life. I hope you can derive great benefit from following another Buddhist tradition if that is your wish.
Bill Esterhaus
July 8, 2011 at 2:13 pm
When I was in NKT I too was able to ignore the sufferings the group was causing others, thinking my own experiences most important – but it never sat easily with me and was a major cause of my finally leaving. If it was just what happened to me, well that would be bad enough. But it is much more. I understand that those of you in NKT are taught to dimiss this, and therefore it is of no benefit to keep arguing it with you.
It is a shame there are no statistics available, again this would really help people to make good choices on the basis of accurate information. How many who ordain, I wonder, give back their vows within two or three years? It seems to me it must be a lot. If the numbers at my ordination are representative then the total number ordaining at spring and summer festival must be about 70 – 90 per year. Yet those sorts of numbers are not represented at the major festivals that all ordained try to get to.
I can’t say without information whether most people benefit or not, I can only say that I know many who have suffered, and that I know of no other Buddhist group that has so many saying such similar unflattering things about it. I therefore could not justify financially or practically supporting NKT, when there are other sources of similar teachings that do not give rise to such distressing accounts in such vast numbers.
I’ll just add that I was extremely fortunate in that I never attended HYT empowerments while in the organisation; those who have and later leave must have a terribly confusing time far worse than mine.
lifegoeson
July 8, 2011 at 7:56 pm
Robert writes: “I only wish you were more constructive and encouraging, because I wonder if your actions harm the spiritual lives of many people by destroying what joy they may have developed in Buddha’s teachings?”
I think you know that those who have left NKT have no intention to encourage people to join or continue in it. tenpel encourages many people in the wider teachings of the Buddha and his dharma, and helps many of us understand a) where what we learnt in NKT went wrong and b) what the more accepted interpretations and applications are.
If this destroys people’s enjoyment of the NKT it is only because NKT has gone off on a tangent and a) doesn’t present this wider view itself and b) dissuades its followers from investigating it.
Again I come back to information. Give people information and let them decide. If you withhold information then sure it’s going to throw people when they see what you haven’t presented to them or encouraged them to check out for themselves. Keeping people ignorant does not pay off long term, though it may well allow you to exploit them for money and centre work in the short term.
lifegoeson
July 13, 2011 at 2:59 pm
reply to tenpel,s comment,s
a typing error ! dalai lama my appologies !
on the subject of letting go , I,ve learnt that when I can or do let go then I can go on,I have allso learnt through bitter experience that by holding on to a thought , a feeling or an oppinion I am blinding myself , cocooning myself in ignorance , fog! ,when one finaly lets go,(ceases to attatch) , ones clarity returns, ones burdon lightens and ones inteligence returns. It sounds condecending to say that whilst in the throws of having thoughts and feelings ,(especialy when talking about all the hurt caused in the circumstances that are being discussed) that one is in ignorance , but from examining my mind I would say that was so .
For example the shugden issue,I have been ‘TOLD’ by people both side of the fence,what I should think , what I should do ! I have two reactions to such a situation, take offense,where by I run the risk of becoming angry,or oppinionated my self,thus entering in to a state of ignorance , or immidiately (or as soon as possible) detatch from the situation,have no thought , no feeling , no oppinion . when I can have no oppinion I have the clarity to examine the situation and arrive at a ballanced view. That is my understanding of inteligence, Remember the teaching “regard even your enemy as your kind teacher” it dosent mean he is right ! it suggests that you can transfofm negative situation in to a positive one !
I have battled with this one time and time again,after all ignorance keeps happening,this is samsara! buddhists refer to this as ” this degenerate age ” the hindus ” age of hypocracy and lies ” both share the same understanding of dhuka! suffering! yet we are still fortuneate we have access to dharma . so it is a matter of which to choose ?and how to know that we are making the right choice ? how to know what is pure dharma ? ……..by keeping a clear mind , examining ,” testing it ,” ……………..practice , practice , practice , now after many years , if by my practice I can help or encourage anyone to have faith and keep on regardless of all the noncence they meet then my practice is worthwhile .
A vaisnava would say , Lord Buddha Ki Jai ! (all glories to lord buddha.)
much love ratikala
ratikala
July 8, 2011 at 8:09 am
however I initialy posted comment on this site because I was shocked to hear the story posted by tenpel so I return to comments in that original statement
the reason I gave a little of my history was to serve as an example , I would not attempt to tell L.G.O. what to do or how to do it, but I can say how I came through difficult and at times unhappy situations,
why ? because lots of things she says ,sound very familliar either I have felt similarly at times or have had friends go through similar doubts and emotions .
L.G.O. said that she felt some desire to strike out on her own spiritual path,”but didnt know how” I went through a stage some what similar , where I was so dissilusioned , feeling that I didnt want to trust people or groups , I put away alot of my books , I lost my initial enthusiasm for just about every thing , if I read it just reminded me of all the injustices I had seen , yet I never put away my buddha or my pictures I just loved them too much I used to just sit and look at buddha , at chenreizig and at manjushri and contemplate their individual natures . Buddha just sat serenely allmost oblivious of every thing ! so peacefull , so beautifull , chenreizig smiling at me with love and compassion mala gently turning , and manjushri flaming sword raised ready to cut out ignorance in one swoop……but whos ignorance?……..mine of cource ! after all no one else was there just me , just me and buddha and two aspects of his nature . I didnt trust any one else just buddha ! I was begining to build a relationship with buddha I began reading again , but no one in particular’s books , basic teachings , buddhas teachings , eight fold path , history of buddhism , and slowly the buddhas just pulled me back in . I didnt know how but they did ! When I felt most in need they allways made something happen arround me that might encourage me or remind me , something that might teach me , something that I was needing to know . Because of this I felt like someone was watching over me and that if I kept a calm and un cluttered mind I would realise what they wanted me to see.
From this I realised that you dont allways need to be around people , sometimes its just a distraction , sometimes you need thinking space and non thinking space , then the buddha seed within can ripen , you just have to give it the right conditions , going to a center is good some times , meditating together is good some times , but some times not . Going to a center can cause you to want to do what others are dooing because it looks like it is working for them , and you might think then it must work for me!!! when I was going to the n.k.t. every one was being very busy taking classes , attending this , attending that , empowerments here , empowerments there , it can be too much , no time to digest any one teaching no time to realy put it in to practice , work with it , Yes buddhas teachings are “potentialy beautiful” but then comes the long hard and wonderfull job of transforming potential into actuality . one step at a time , gently , gently , practice , practice , one step further each day . One day you will look back and realise just how far you have come , normaly when your not realy looking , you will just notice !
now I’m going to tread on some very dellicate ground , please no one take any offence , Ordination ? are you any less a buddist when out of robes ? or is it possible to be a better buddist because you are in robes ? we take vows and ordination in to a particular tradition a blessing is bestowed on us which helps us feel the commitment we have made . helps us carry out that commitment . But all in all if your intention is or was pure then nothing can spoil or devalue that intention , if you had to give back your robes it dosent nececarily take away the purity of that intention , even if you loose that intention as often happens after that honey moon period , thats ok it will level out . If experienced sanga isnt there to support you and you dont havet he support you need that is not your down fall I’m affraid it is theirs…. keep as many vows as you feel comfortable with dont take on too much but what you do take on do it well , take pride in it , do it with joy , do it out of love for buddha and know that he showers his blessings on you , and if one day you mess up dont worry , pick your self up and try again …….buddha is still showering blessings on you .
again with love Ratikala
ratikala
July 8, 2011 at 10:56 pm
Robert: “Btw Tenzin – your rephrasing of my post to me doesn’t make sense because it is written from the assumption that I have been hurt or damaged by my NKT experience.”
@Robert:I think you have been damaged but you have also experienced something valuable.
But of course, it is only you yourself who judges this for yourself and who bears the consequences of such judgments. My rephrasing of your post doesn’t make sense to you, that’s ok. But it might make sense to others, also you can use this as an example that what you wrote to LGO doesn’t make sense to LGO ;-)
tenpel
July 8, 2011 at 5:46 pm
A small correction to my last post, I wrote:
“Also our texts explain that Shatideva is referring to the spontaneous and continuous wish to become a Buddha stabilized by the deep insight attained when we complete the second Mahayana path, the path of preparation.”
It should be not second but the actual Mahayana paths, beginning with the first path, accumulation, which in turn depends on the superior seeing arising from Tranquil abiding.- For more details you can for example check the chapter, Progressing through the Spiritual Grounds and Paths in Joyful Path of Good Fortune or Heart of Wisdom.
Robert Thomas
July 9, 2011 at 1:57 pm
I’m writing this as a reflective reply to the opinion that I have a downer on NKT and see it as all bad and negative. I think … that there are aspects one gets in NKT that can and do really help people, because what is taught is after all based on the Buddha’s dharma teachings. I still benefit from some of the understandings and practices I learned, and my life would be less without them.
The danger is, well really what tenpel said about the dog and poisoned food: what one absorbs along with the dharma teachings – twists on the dharma; emphases that aren’t helpful and can be damaging (such as the ethic to only work for your dharma centre and not volunteer in the community, or that having non-NKT friends is a useless indulgence); attitudes that are more NKT institutional than dharma derived; and NKT catch phrases that seem so meaningful until you can look at them from an outside perspective.
It’s this that really messes people up, both while in NKT and after they leave. We have received teachings that are beautiful and useful and that have changed our lives … We’ve also been financially exploited and treated callously, often by the same people who gave us those teachings. Aspects of the beautiful dharma have been mis-presented to us.
That’s why so many people who have left feel the need to publicly speak up so vehemently against the group.
NKT turns on us when we speak out about our experiences, trying to belittle and undermine us in ways that have become standard among NKT supporters posting on the internet: you are just one person with a grudge, the organisation can’t suit everyone, you are writing about the past and it’s all better now, you need to let it go and stop harming yourself by “holding on” to these experiences … well anyone who has done their research knows the lines.
And then, after ripping into you and undermining you, they finish their posts by wishing you well. It just … doesn’t wash. Though it is “the Kadampa Buddhist thing to do” as taught by NKT: do damage and then make out it was acted out of pure intentions. That’s OK then!
This is why I want to warn people against the NKT, to give information that balances the information the organisation itself produces. I know I am not going to convince anyone firmly within NKT, you have a lot to lose if you start to doubt (though later a lot to gain too!). I know how you feel when you read this kind of thing, because I did too, I was taught the same attitudes in the same compelling ways. You need to believe the good in the group outweighs the bad, and the NKT has taught you ways to hold onto that. It’s easier than facing up to what people who have left are actually saying about what actually happens within NKT.
lifegoeson
July 10, 2011 at 1:57 pm
[...] Tenpel at this site (see the reply to the 3rd comment posted July 6, 12:27pm). What he writes speaks directly to my [...]
a helpful analogy « Walking the Pathless Land
July 10, 2011 at 6:32 pm
Dear LGO – I am sorry if you think that you experiences are being dismissed as one offs and that you need to “move on”. For my part I certainly don’t feel this way about what you have written. I think the NKT does make mistakes and sometimes groups of people in NKT do develop potenitally harmful views or behaviours which are not consistent with Dharma. I also think the NKT has and is doing a lot to improve in response to the experiences of people like you – NKT Truth Blog, or the Internal Rules are two obvious examples.
Something that I have seen from time to time from your experinec is:
” the ethic to only work for your dharma centre and not volunteer in the community, or that having non-NKT friends is a useless indulgence”
I agree and have seen this from time to time. And I find it sad and ironic that one of the core teachings of Kadampa buddhism is “Remain natural whilst changing your aspiration” and that Geshe-la constantly teaches, “Don’t change your job, your friends … only your mind”. And yet, some people still have ideas such as the above and try to persuade others of them too. I have always been lucky to have good Sangha friends who guided me away from such mistaken views or extremes. I am sure not eveyone is so lucky.
I thnk this confusion between what is taught and what to practice comes from mixing the advice and commitments of specific groups or individuals as though they apply to everyone. For example, I recall at one time Geshe-la asked resident teachers to stop going to the cinema but to train in practicing contentment (fairly tame stuff compared for example to what mgiht be asked in a monastic setting). Some people understood this to mean however that Geshe-la said going to the cinema is bad and woudl feel guilty for going and not talk about having gone – in other words causing people to act oddly and decietfully (although on a very mild level). Nonetheless, un-corrected this behaviour will destroy the trust and honesty needed from true Sangha friends.
Another example is that Dharma center residents are not allowed TV – a perfectly natural request for an environment which is dedicated to the development of inner peace. Again however this is sometimes understood as meaning that no Dharma student shoudl have a TV – even though you can even find teachings in Geshe-la’s books on how to integrate watching TV or Films into Dharma practice. Again, this wrong understaniding might lead to problems of misunderstanding for example, the object of renunciation and cause people to supress their desire for simple contaminated happiness when thinking that they were in fact engaged in some great virtue! Another sure recipie for problems down the line.
As a last example of how commitments for one group can be misunderstood or applied as having a wider meaning. FP studemts take a commitment to attend all classes for the course they sign up to – if they then want to see friends or family on those days, and if it happens quite often, they may be asked to stop their FP program. Quite rightly, because FP offfers a certain standard to those that attend such as commited and consistent study and discussion partners, and to complete FP means NKT signs off that you have not only passed exams but attended the required classes etc. However being asked to stop FP can lead to feelings of guilt, resentment or rejection or lead to the notion that NKT discourages other freinds etc (which were perhaps the reason the classes were missed). When in reality it means nothing more than, FP means keeping certain commitments and if you can’t keep them, then find a level of practice which is comfortable for you. I know however that such people sometimes feel as though they have been rejected by the center. Here I think the difficulty is once again that people get the idea that doing FP means you are some how a better Buddhist than those on GP, and that TTP students are the best Buddhists! A dangerous precedent which will once again distort the students idea of what they are abandoning and trying to attain in their Buddhist pursuit.
I remember one meeting with Geshe-la where he asked us (the managers of our center) who were the most important people in the center? Some thought it must be the resident teacher or EPC, some the TTP students etc. What suprised most of us was that in fact Geshe-la said it was the people who only come once or twice. Why? Because they were so much greater in number than all the other groups I mentioned. He then explained how people are lonely, confused etc and sometimes what they need is just a little company, some kindness and a cup of tea. This he said was very meaningful and we should really cherish those people. In this way he said, the Buddhist center can really help everyone, Buddhist and non Buddhist (which was by far the greater number).
Anyway, seems i’m incapable of writing anything briefly. But I would like to thank LGO for sharing her experiences and also join her wish that it helps others and that the NKT will continue to improve so that such experiences end. Athough of course you can’t please all the people all the time!
with very best wishes
Robert
Robert Thomas
July 11, 2011 at 8:27 am
Given that the vast majority of people in NKT never ever get to meet Kelsang Gyatso in person, it is impossible to say how much he knows about what goes on at “ground level” in NKT centres. All I can say is, I know the things I included in my initial essay on this thread and my later post are commonly the things that are taught and the way people are treated in NKT. The internal rules get updated, but what actually happens, attitudes that are passed on, change little. I can’t say that it matters whether it’s coming from the top or from “misunderstandings” in the “lower ranks”, but I can say it all goes on, widely, and is damaging to too many people to simply justify. Given that almost no one gets to meet KG directly, who can you trust? Not even your resident teacher, in my experience. And not surprisingly, few of even them have personally met KG.
Perhaps it does matter that if KG is a Buddha, then he absolutely does know and does nothing; if he doesn’t know he’s not a Buddha. Take your pick. He certainly knew what Samden was doing at least three years before it officially came to light, and allowed him to continue abusing all those women – I met the ex-monk who told him.
At whatever level, the organisation is out of control, and out of synch with the real meanings of the dharma. It’s got too big too fast, without enough seriously experienced Buddhists to guide new people, so that most people come in to parroted, misunderstood teachings, misapplied. I have long wondered how much or how little KG knows about this, since everyone knows he isn’t even given most letters that are sent to him, never mind actually meeting the “lower level” people in situations where they can talk freely. I’d bet that he never saw the letter I wrote to him when I sent back my robes.
By the way, I have tried to dialogue with someone from NKT via the “truth” site; as soon as they started to feel uncomfortable and unable to answer they simply stopped letting my posts through. A very effective tactic in avoiding public exposure of things that don’t sit well with the NKT public image.
lifegoeson
July 11, 2011 at 9:05 pm
Robert said…
I also think the NKT has and is doing a lot to improve in response to the experiences of people like you – NKT Truth Blog, or the Internal Rules are two obvious examples.
On NKTruth Bill Esterhaus said…:
June 5, 2010 at 10:17 pm
I rejoice that John Swainson knows the internal rules well enough to raise these questions. It’s also a good check to make sure that the internal rules are being followed – wonderful!
On NKTruth Robert says:
June 23, 2010 at 9:38 pm
Dear Ruth,
People accept positions in the NKT because they want to help others and spread the Dharma. Do we need to pick over the sordid details if their delusions get the better of them and they don’t succeed? At least they had a good intention. What’s yours?
Is the Robert posting on this site the same as the Robert who posted on NKTruth?
There can only be one Bill Esterhaus.
Robert, NKT Truth Blog answered some of my questions but when I proved they had not followed the Internal Rules and the Charity Commission supported my claim they did not want much to do with me. I accept I am a critic of the organisation as I find it and this was the reason NKT Truth Blog severed any connection we had. They said I was not offering constructive criticism.
Bill. The above shows your rejoicing in me knowing the Internal Rules. Having just seen the Ratnasambhara Leeds website, I find that there is a teacher by the name of Chogka. My memory tells me that Chokga was, one of the three teachers at Losang Dragpa who contributed, by their actions, to that centre becoming ‘impure’.
NKTruth answered my question as to whether she had ignored the remedial actions of the organisation by saying ‘Yes’
So, Robert, how useful are the Internal Rules?
John Swainson
John Swainson
July 12, 2011 at 6:53 pm
Hi John. Actually, no, not me!
As for Chogkya – I couldn’t comment with so little information.
Re – Charity Commision, will they pursue the matter? Again I have neither the information or legal knowledge to comment either way, but I expect and hope CC to act if there is a case to answer.
With best wishes
Robert
Robert Thomas
July 13, 2011 at 7:10 am
with respect to the charity commission, the last thing I heard was that Kelsang Gyatso has transferred money to Shugden monasteries in India using NKT charity money and he has thereby violated the rules of the CC…
tenpel
July 13, 2011 at 8:57 am
John Swainson posted about Chogka.
This shows another big gap in the NKT idea of ordination – what makes a downfall of the vows and what should be done about it? In other traditions if a monk or nun fully breaks an important vow – and here Chokga has broken at least two (sexual activity and lying) – then they disrobe, I believe. Usually they can ordain again later.
It looks like Chokga did not disrobe, I would think people would know, and even if she did disrobe and reordain very quickly then as you say the condition of not being able to teach again, ever, is being violated.
Personally I think she is/was naive and more of a victim than anything, but she did seriously contravene her vows, whatever the reasons behind it. What are those vows worth if you can just carry on as before?
I understand that lesser contravention of vows can be purified in sojong, but not anything this major.
lifegoeson
July 13, 2011 at 1:42 pm
There are more problems here. The proper Sojong purification ritual does not allow rabjungs (including NKT ordainees) to attend. The Sojong purification ritual is utterly based on the presence of a qualified Sangha community which means there must be at least four gelongs (fully ordained ones) to be able to perform Sojong. If there are not four gelongs with intact vows present, there cannot be any Sojong. In that context it shows how strange this idea is that one becomes a gelong with uncontrived renunciation. Not only that this is a wrong explanation (only Arhats become ‘natural Bhikshus or Bhikshunis’ as I said already) but the clear Vinaya is turned upside down because since nobody knows who has uncontrived renunciation nobody knows who must be present to perform a qualified Sojong ritual. What a confusion…
Even using the term “vow” in the context of NKT ordination is controversial and not really correct.
Sorry for pointing this out but I do not wish that this type of confusion which NKT spread about ordination is continued on my blog.
Thank you for your post and your comments, both I feel to be very useful and they speak out the experiences of many. t
tenpel
July 13, 2011 at 1:57 pm
tenpel, what happens usually when someone with rabjung vows completely breaks them?
lifegoeson
July 13, 2011 at 2:05 pm
Rabjungs do not have vows. see: http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2011/04/18/new-kadampa-tradition-ordination/ *
If a rabjung breaks his or her commitments then this is a fault. I have to admit that I have to ask a teacher what then exactly happens from the pov of how or if he or she can continue under certain circumstances.
For sure if a rabjung breaks one of the main rules this is less heavy than if a gestul or gelong would do it. While for the getsul and gelong breaking one of the four basic vows the ordination ceases and one cannot receive ordination again (in Tibetan Buddhism at least) what happens for a rabjung I do not know exactly. If you are interested in this I would try to get correct information from a Tibetan Lharampa Geshe who studied the Vinaya.
At the moment I assume that a rabjung has failed to approach correctly the lifestyle of a monk or nun if he or she transgresses any of the four basic rules, therefore the consequence will be that he or she is no rabjung any more and shouldn’t pretend to be one by wearing the robes. After having failed to preserve the basic vows, if such a person can take up a training again as a rabjung aiming to approach the entry in the monastic community by striving to become a getsul or a gelong (which btw is the meaning of becoming a rabjung), I do not know at the moment.
* I put there and in another comment I made as a reply to Robert a wrong link and updated it now. sorry.
tenpel
July 13, 2011 at 2:14 pm
I see. That complicates even more the NKT position, and muddies the waters further about what should happen if what they consider to be a vow is completely transgressed. I see how complex and unclear they have made things, and how it is, I guess, necessary for them to be making it up as they go along.
Many people love the dharma in part for its clarity; it’s unsettling that something like a “simpler” form of (NKT) ordination can actually destroy that clarity.
lifegoeson
July 13, 2011 at 3:08 pm
Hey now – let’s not call names. No need, it’s unkind and assumes a perfect knowledge of another’s actions – which non of us have. It’s quite possible to discuss these points without naming anyone.
Robert Thomas
July 13, 2011 at 2:23 pm
I’m not checking or posting here as often as I was, but this point I’ve been pondering. What is says to me is, let’s not use the specific examples that are available to us, and let’s justify that by saying none of us knows the full details.
Isn’t not giving details/information what the NKT does best? And then it tries to silence those who speak out by saying they don’t have all the information required to make an informed comment …?
Hmmmm.
lifegoeson
July 20, 2011 at 9:45 am
I feel there is no problem here. The vows associated with the NKT are clear. They may not be considered to be vows among the other schools, but they are vows within the NKT. Their Internal Rules are also clear.
John Swainson
July 13, 2011 at 4:39 pm
Hi John, the ‘vows’ might be clear but it is not clear when or when not they have been transgressed. When I was in NKT Kelsang Gyatso has never ever given an explanation when a ‘vow’ is really broken and when not. In the book for monks and nuns, provided by the NKT and called “ordination handbook”, he just said: “try to keep your vows as good as you can”. This unclarity is really not very helpful, consequently some felt they have failed and disrobed after they have masturbated. I myself was thinking if I do a major mistake then just to try to avoid it and to give your best is sufficient. Actual it is not even explained what a major mistake is. Do NKT monks or nuns loose their ‘vows’ when they drink alcohol or a beer? Since you have not been a monk in the NKT you might miss the point we or I try to stress here, points which are really important to be understood correctly if one wishes to follow the life of a monk or nun.
thank you for your comments and very best, t
tenpel
July 13, 2011 at 11:07 pm
@LGO, exactly: “That complicates even more the NKT position, and muddies the waters further about what should happen… Many people love the dharma in part for its clarity; it’s unsettling that something like a “simpler” form of (NKT) ordination can actually destroy that clarity.”
The clarity has been lost and the clarity of the Dharma and Vinaya is replaced by ambiguity and confusion. NKT ‘monks and nuns’ are misled by the explanations Kelsang Gyatso is giving them, and since they have no comparison, no correct teachings about the Vinaya they believe easily what he claims.
But the root of this problem is that Kelsang Gyatso has successfully removed all teachers who have either the same level of learning or a higher level of learning than he has in (Tibetan) Buddhism, so he can claim anything and won’t receive any objection. Not only is there no living authority who can correct Kelsang Gyatso, but he removed even all scriptural authority which could potentially correct him (or is there any text about the Vinaya in the NKT available?). Not only this he also misrepresents the Bodhisattva vows by wrongly claiming that it would be a transgression to rely more on books than on the teacher.* The NKT is a self-circling system which is designed that there is one leader and all the other follow him without questioning his authority. Communist power clinging party leaders couldn’t do it better.
The undemocratic system of the communists and NKT are quite similar only the explanations differ, e.g. the enemy of the working class were the “evil imperialists” in East Germany and in NKT the enemy and “evil oppressor” of “pure practitioner” is the “evil Dalai Lama”. Just a simple means to control people or to not loose power and to strengthen the tights among one’s followers—or some might really believe it to be true.
*details see here: http://www.amazon.com/Bodhisattva-Vow-Practical-Helping-Others/product-reviews/0948006501/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_3?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addThreeStar
tenpel
July 13, 2011 at 10:44 pm
Hi Tenpel
‘Of course, sometimes you will have small problems and may damage your vows or make some small mistakes.This damage can be repaired by joining in the ordination ceremony and mentally renewing your vows’. From the Ordination Handbook.
I have read the Berzin article which explains the complexity not offered within the Handbook.
Small mistakes are alluded to but not explained in the Ordination Handbook.
Breaking vows or damaging them…?
This NKT stuff is supposed to be appropriate for those in the West.
If so , then a Western understanding of a broken vow must apply.
On a personal level, that of a Western monk or nun, within the NKT, they must have some idea whether they have broken the vow of celibacy they made at ordination.
May I suggest that at ordination the wish to keep the vow is strong but the ability to do so in a Western way is variable.
If there are people out there that feel they have been abused, then they were not ready for this type of activity. I have put this simply, not out of criticism but with compassion.
John Swainson
July 14, 2011 at 6:50 pm
John, how would someone know if they are ready for these vows if they don’t get clear explainations of what the vows mean, what is a small trangession, what is a big enough trangression that you should no longer have the right to call yourself a monk or nun?
My second RT tried to tell me it wasn’t important to even know what the vows were before you ordained. Seriously!
The vagueness of the last five is just impossible to work with. Take practising contentment, for example. At what level of discontent have you transgressed that vow? What should you do about it? Reducing desire for worldly pleasures? A great aim, but it you give in to lust for chocolate cake, should you still be allowed to call yourself a monk or nun? Or have you even done anything wrong at all?
You say that we need to interpret them in a Western way, but what exactly is a Western way when it comes to Buddhist ordination vows? Christian monks and nuns are strict about their vows, and different traditions have different, but clear, ways of dealing with transgressions. The NKT’s Western way seems to be general vagueness
I suspect a lot of NKT monks and nuns who last less than three years descend into an unvoiced confusion about a lot of things, and there’s not even the clarity to know how or when to ask your RT about it, assuming you even have access to your RT (in larger centres such access can be rare indeed). Or you may find that within weeks of ordination you suddenly *are* the RT, in some small centre somewhere. My first RT was put in post almost immediately after she ordained.
The contrast with the Vinaya is that it is remarkably clear. Admittedly, it contains vows that can be impossible to uphold in the post-modern West, but tenpel has pointed out that there is clarity about that too – about which vows are root vows and should never be broken and which can be dealt with a little more loosely, such as handling money. There are texts examining the vows and their implications, lots of information, and many teachers you can go to to check if you need to.
There are also a few books written by Vinaya monks and nuns for inspiration and general “how to do it” etc, wheras in NKT it is forbidden for anyone other than KG to publish anything that might reflect on the organisation.
I suspect many ex-NKT monks and nuns could have made it with a gradual process to full ordination, clarity and guidance as those in Vinaya traditions get. Others might have taken a short term ordination such as the one to three year ones the Kagyu at Samye Ling offer, and thus had a far easier transition back into lay life than having to decide to give back vows taken for life.
lifegoeson
July 20, 2011 at 10:09 am
Dear John and dear Robert, I lack time to read and to reply to your posts. I hope I find time next week. Very best, t
tenpel
July 15, 2011 at 10:19 pm
Only Kelsang Gyatso and a few others in the NKT will know how he funded his donation to the temples in India.
However, consider the below.
‘This was my first experience of politics in this life. I pray that this will never happen again in the future’. Kelsang Gyatso
After all the denials and statements about not being involved at any level how will the following statement from the NKT August 3rd 2010 affect the beneficiaries within the NKT?
‘NKT students have joined Tibetan monks and Tibetan lay people in the Western Shugden Society demonstrations requesting the Dalai Lama to give freedom to Dorje Shugden practitioners. Geshe Kelsang and a number of NKT students have also supported the new Gelugpa monasteries, Shar Gaden and Serpom Norling, not just morally but with generous financial aid.
Shar Gaden has a picture of Geshe Kelsang in its main meditation hall, acknowledging his courage on behalf of all Dorje Shugdan practitioners and his help in bringing these new monasteries into existence.’
Here, I turn to generous financial aid and Kelsang Gyatso’s role in establishing two monasteries for Shugden practitioners.
NKT statement about Kelsang Gyatso’s stipend.
Geshe Kelsang lives very humbly in one room on a small stipend and gives everything he receives away to others, including the royalties to his books. In 1996 he said…‘Manjushri Buddhist Centre sponsors me. I receive free accommodation and food, and a small allowance. In the beginning it was £50 a month, but gradually it increased and now it is £250. The Directors and managers of Manjushri Buddhist Centre have these records’.
So, where does the generous financial aid he has given come from? He has no personal wealth, did it come from donations made by his followers? NKT Internal rules state… 18§7. Unless proposed or approved by the Education Council, no NKT-IKBU Dharma Centre, Teacher or student shall raise money in NKT-IKBU Dharma Centres for the development of non-NKT-IKBU organisations or projects, or for non-NKT-IKBU private individuals.
So, if the money came from his followers then it must have been raised somewhere. If it was raised within the centres then the Educational Council must have given approval. Remember his words. ‘I don’t want to be involved again at any level’? Kelsang Gyatso.
The Commission states ‘there must be evidence of serious harm to beneficiaries, and in particular, vulnerable beneficiaries’. If Kelsang Gyatso himself says, ‘the New Kadampa Tradition suffered, our reputation was destroyed’ then this is evidence enough, that to continue with this action would be harmful to the organisation and its beneficiaries. To claim that NKT is separate from Western Shugden Society is at least disengenuous. I believe the denial was made to avoid damage to the reputation of the NKT and its members. During his final speech at a festival in 2009 he said this regarding the NKT, ‘This is my heart. I never separate this organisation this life, future life.’ If this is the case, the NKT, the Western Shugden Society and Kelsang Gyatso are synonomous.
The Press Complaints Commission uses these guidelines when detecting or exposing…serious impropriety; protecting public health and safety; preventing the public from being misled by an action or statement of an individual or organisation. Take the case of the NKT/ WSS. The exposed acts are of interest because of the status of the individual ie Kelsang Gyatso. They concern openness and truth and the ‘public may be misled by an action or statement of an individual or organisation’ into believing the benign image cultivated by them. Consider the harm done to beneficiaries of the charity when their faith is challenged on hearing of the inconsistences in behaviour by those in which they have trust.
John Swainson
July 16, 2011 at 9:36 am
@Robert, thank you for your post, I lack time for a detailed reply. We can leave it more or less with this I think. Two short comments to what you have written above: the ordination is not included in the Mahayana precepts which are the Bodhisattva vows which are based on Bodhichitta. In fact the ordination of Buddhist monks and nuns is based on renunciation, the wish for personal liberation, this is the meaning of Pratimoksha (personal liberation). To invent a Mahayana ordination lineage which didn’t exist previously is quite an amazing approach. The arguments you or NKT are using are based on confusion not the arguments I use. The way KG/NKT is justifying the NKT ordination even belittles indirectly the ordination by pointing out that it would ‘only’ refer to the Hinayana but this has been ever since so and this has not been any problem for any Mahayana master including Je Tsongkhapa, Atisha, Trijang Rinpoche or Pabongkha Rinpoche. Its funny that NKT / KG accuse the Dalai Lama to having “destroyed the pure Buddhadharma” because the Dalai Lama pointed out the faults he perceives in the Shugden practice which has never been taught by the Buddha or Atisha, Je Tsongkhapa and at the same time the NKT turn a blind eye on the fact that they are doing the same with the ordination and cannot see the faults of doing so, a fault which is far more grave, I think, than to abandon Shugden worship.
With respect to the hells-argument in KG’s book. It is a common way for NKT to argue: only these few pages in Geshe-las whole work point out the hells or Shugden, nevertheless, this does not repudiate the fact, that both teachings are of utter importance in NKT and are very present in the minds of the people. To explain why and how this is so, I lack time.
Keep your chins up Robert, maybe we’ll meet one day,
Tenzin
@John
It is funny that NKT sees their arguments and protests now as unpolitical and accuse Tibetan Buddhists of “mixing Dharma with politics” while claiming at the same time to be utter free of such a perceived faults. When I asked recently a Philosophy professor to answer some of the questions WSS/NKT brought up in the public with their protests, (I asked him to contribute to the answers of the FAQ I compiled)* he refused because the topics of those questions are perceived by him as being utterly political. And as you have pointed out, Kelsang Gyatso himself acknowledged in the past that these protests were political actions. With respect to who is the owner of NKT and centres, actual though Geshe Kelsang said different times at the NKT festivals: “the centres are your centres” when we made some decisions in our NKT centre he finally accused our resident teacher of having stolen the centre from him. How can he not possess and possess a centre at the same time? He also said in Berlin in 2000: “I. I am the NKT!” This is jut an example of the NKT confusion: saying somethng in the public which sounds nice but actual the way how is thought and acted is something different. Actual he is identifying with the NKT, it is his identification.
*http://info-buddhism.com/TibetanBuddhismQA/QA-TibetanBuddhism.pdf
With respect to your ordination comment. I agree with the first part of it but I have some objections with this:
Understanding of when a vow has been broken or not has nothing to do with Western (or Eastern), either things are explained and understood clearly or not—no matter where one lives.
Only if someone gets a clear explanation or has a clear knowledge when and how a vow is broken, one can keep it. If it is not clear the danger to break is comes easy at hand. Therefore what a monk or nun needs first after their ordination is a clear explanation of the vows and a study of their subtleties and what major or minor faults there are, which vows can be restored and which vows cannot be restored. The four root vows cannot be restored in a proper Sojong ceremony but the vow of not drinking alcohol can be restored. Also loosing ordination does not mean for instance to tell just a lie but a “great lie” which means that one wrongly claims to have supernatural abilities or a realization of emptiness. This “great lie”** is even accomplished, when you express this with your body or by just making a movement which is made for the sake that the other person wrongly believes that one has such supernatural powers or realization of emptiness and the like and one intended that the other person develops such a (wrong) belief about one’s own abilities. It is quite a complex but clear subject matter one must study!
If people were abused than this abuse has many causes and conditions but in an environment were there is no clear guidance and teachings how to lead a proper monk or nun life and on top of it where the environment supports quick ordinations, and lacks the presence of elder fully ordained monks and where the environment leaves less space to take care of one’s own internal development and growth, the lack of nourishing conditions will contribute to quite a lot of strange incidents and failings.
** NKT accused wrongly HHDL of a “great lie” on their WSS website without knowing what this really means.
tenpel
July 20, 2011 at 11:00 am
Dear Tenzin
I’m sorry ot find my sefl replying as I know that I niether speak authoritatively on behalf of NKT (I have no official capacity with them) or as a wise and learned practitioner – but nonethelss I feel its at least important to qualify your last comments with a different perspective.
You said:
“the ordination is not included in the Mahayana precepts which are the Bodhisattva vows which are based on Bodhichitta. In fact the ordination of Buddhist monks and nuns is based on renunciation, the wish for personal liberation, this is the meaning of Pratimoksha (personal liberation).”
Of course the Pratimoksha is based on rencunciatinon but the commentry to the vows (their nature, funcition etc) in the NKT is based on the Mahayana scriptures and the Lamrim presentation of them; as opposed to the Hinayana Vaibashika view. This is consistent with all the practices in NKT. It is quite clear however that in NKT ordination is depending on renunciation. NKT defines ordination as “a special moral discipline motivated by renunciation and received by means of a ritual practice given by an Ordaining Preceptor.”
But the commentry on this renucniation, the nature of vows etc is from the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras, as presentedin through Lamrim. For this reason Lamrim is also the teaching for us on when a vow is taken, broken etc – again this is very clear in Joyful Path or Bodhisattva Vow books. Which I understand is why Geshe-la calls it our Vinaya. Because it explains these things (from the Mahayana view).
You also said:
“KG accuse the Dalai Lama to having “destroyed the pure Buddhadharma” because the Dalai Lama pointed out the faults he perceives in the Shugden practice which has never been taught by the Buddha or Atisha, Je Tsongkhapa and at the same time the NKT turn a blind eye on the fact that they are doing the same with the ordination and cannot see the faults of doing so,”
Geshe-la himself clearly has not abandoned the lineage of the Vinaya in fact he actively supports the monastics in the monastries in India such as Serpom, Shar Gaden etc. Also NKT commentry includes the training to regard any ordained monsatic as the Sangha jewel. On the other hand the Dalai Lama has completely abandoned Shugden practitioners and even teaches that they are to be avoided. The two things are not in anyway comparable.
you also said: “NKT ordination even belittles indirectly the ordination by pointing out that it would ‘only’ refer to the Hinayana ”
NKT ordination doesn’t imply any disparagement of any one else. You can find fullsome praise of the hinayana and its concomitant realisations in NKT books. We also are taught that studying Hinayana views does not preclude the development of Mahayana realisations; just as we also receieve the admonishment that studying the Mahayana in no way makes one superior to those studying the Hinayana (see opening of Great Scope section in Joyful Path as an example). So NKT teachings really respect all schools of Buddhist thought.
Lamrim also explains how Bodhichitta is developed from the foundation of renunciation, exaclty in accord with Je Tsongkhapa’s texts such as The Three Principal Aspects of the Path. So we don’t criticise or reject anything. What Geshe-la has done is select those teachings whcih he thinks are most appropriate in helping us gain bddhist realisations, he has selected these based on our mental and cultural dipositions (this is the job a qualified Spiritual Teacher).
NKT Monastics and the Vinaya tradition:
There is a technical question of whether the NKT ordination should be considered to be in effect “the same” as the Vinaya tradition and as equal members of the Vinaya monastics. I don’t know and I don’t know what Geshe-la’s view is on that. In his ordination talk you quote elsewhere he states:
“If people say that you are doing wrong, you can tell them that we like our tradition, we are happy with it and for us it is enough.” So it sounds like he sees them as seperate traditions (but equally precious) – I clearly see your view however:-)
Nontheless, as I said before, the NKT ordination is consistent with the very practical presentatoin of Buddhism that Geshe-la considers to be most appropriate for westerners; without losing the essential meaning of the Vinaya. He also continues to support the Vinaya in a personal capacity in his work in preserving the monastic traditions in India and Tibet (where he helped re-establish his first monastrey Ngam Ring).
———-
Dear LGO – I can’t really add anything to your comments. You have your view, and your experience and I can’t contradict that. In fact, i’m very happy for you to speak honestly and share information, and I hope it benefits you and others.
With very best wishes
Robert
Robert Thomas
July 20, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Robert, I also have the benefit of listening to the experience of a lot of others who have left NKT – so just to clarify my experiences are not isolated ones.
lifegoeson
July 20, 2011 at 9:11 pm
Hi Tenpel…
I live at Chenrezig Centre Lancaster, I was shocked to find out all this information, to say the least!
I’m very sad for you that you experienced this, as so far, I have felt nothing but comfort here and pleasantness of the people around me that I meet. I do spend a lot of time working for the centre, generally just bits and bobs like admin work and making signs and publicity but I don’t really feel anything like what you have described! I find it interesting that two people can have such different experiences in the same tradition and I’d be interested in finding out more if you would kindly message me on my personal email ? :
abigail.radcliffe@sky.com
I respect your feelings and under no circumstances would I try to lure you back into the NKT, but would appreciate a chat! Thank you and I look forward to hearing from you.
Abbie
August 12, 2011 at 5:27 pm
Abbie, sorry to take a couple of days – I’m not checking here any more, but a friend told me about your comment.
I guess my best answer is that while I lived at the center that might have been how I described my experience too, as I was continually supressing the things I saw wrong with what was going on in favour of the parts I was enjoying.
I understand you have a new teacher at CBC now, for which I am glad for you – the second teacher I had there, Wangmo, was harsh and caused a number of people to leave.
I guess what I would say to you is watch the dynamics in the centre. How many residents are on benefits and discouraged from looking for work, for example? It was a lot when I was there. Also look at how much input you get into decisions that affect your day to day life as a resident. Look at pressure to attend expensive festivals and teachings away from home (especially tantric empowerments in other countries), and to pay for others, especially the RT, to attend. And see what happens if you mention Buddhist teachings from anyone other than KG that you may have read. Look at discouragement from reading other books and pressure to reduce possessions (that gets competetive in NKT centres). Look at the pressure to take tantric empowerments when you have barely started out and have no solid grounding in sutra first.
Also I don’t know if this is still an issue, but when I was there the centre started taking non-Buddhist residents, and we were forbidden, expressly, from discussing certain kinds of teachings with or in front of them (and I’m not just talking about tantra here). Ask yourself, what about the teachings are they ashamed of?
Maybe ask your teacher how she feels about you reading Tenzin’s blog? I would imagine you would get some words on avoiding things that may be “disturbing to your mind”. Or maybe not now, if she has read this too, lol.
I am considering whether it would would be useful to either of us for me to email you privately; if so I will contact you within a week.
lifegoeson
August 14, 2011 at 9:29 am
@Abbi. This was not my experience. I posted it on request of the author.
tenpel
August 13, 2011 at 7:46 pm
Hi there (sorry, what is your name?)
Thanks for your reply. Yes now you mention it there are a few of these things that you have talked about in your reply, going on at the Centre. I think, I can see lots of positive things about the NKT..not the NKT as a whole but the teachings and the RT is really a great Dharma teacher so that’s good. . I think you are right, at the moment the positives are outweighing the negatives and I don’t really feel compelled to do much about the negatives but I do find it interesting to look at what is actually going on.
There are a lot of secretive stuff going on and although I have been with the centre over half a year, the people that have been longer-servers are definitely more in the loop and I feel excluded from certain discussions etc. However, I do feel passionate about Dharma and making people aware of it (in Lancaster). And the NKT, especially Chenrezig KBC have been very good to me in a number of ways so far.
I would much rather do this as personal emails if at all possible as I’m aware of how much people can see.
Whenever you get chance,
Thanks
abigail.radcliffe@sky.com
Abbie
August 15, 2011 at 11:17 am
I have emailed Abbie privately.
Just want to say here that nothing in any of my posts should be taken as an endorsement for continuing to live in NKT centres, or attending their classes. I understand why people might do so, even knowing the negative aspects of the organisation, but if I was to advise it would be to leave and find your Dharma elsewhere, in a reputable group, or even read around and design your own practice.
The first non-NKT Dharma book I read when I was leaving NKT was Joseph Goldstein’s “One Dharma”, which I highly recommend.
Anyone living near an Oxfam bookshop might be advised to keep an eye on the reliigion section and purchase whatever Buddhist books attract your eye :-)
lifegoeson
August 15, 2011 at 2:34 pm
Have you read the accounts from 2009?
Fundraising remains a priority due to need to start work on completing last phase of meeting fire
regs. There is also concern that the boiler needs replacing as it is no longer possible to get
replacement parts. Other improvements need to be made to improve warmth of centre in winter
including secondary glazing in 3 rooms with skylights & Resident Teachers room, radiator in long
corridor & office, & supply of hot water to sink in shower room. The windows at front of building
also need repaintimg & repair, tree needs to be removed from chimney, other chimney needs
rendering on one side & some areas of roof need attention due to leeks.
To pay for the fire regs & replacement boiler a loan is to be taken out from Triodos bank for £10000
as these items are considered essential before Oct 2010. Centre is still repaying an interest free loan
from Manjushri KMC for £18000. We have been advised that it would be ‘inauspicious’ to pay back
the Triodos loan early before repaying loan to MKMC.
Inauspicious is quoted as it is in commas.
My dictionary says…
inauspicious
adjective unpromising, bad, unfortunate, discouraging, unlucky, ominous, unfavourable, black, untoward, ill-omened.
John Swainson
August 15, 2011 at 7:57 pm
It would appear that the repayment to Manjushri KMC is paramount. Triodos Bank is an ethical organisation according to the website, funding lots of worthwhile enterprises. However, the NKT want their debt settled first. It would be inauspicious? Is that a threat?
John Swainson
August 15, 2011 at 8:04 pm
Dear Abbie
You say “there are a lot of secretive stuff going on”, but did you try to ask about the things that you are referring to? It was my experience that people often just didn’t ask on the assumption that it was private. But when they did ask, information was always readily available. I suggest you try just asking the center director or your resident teacher directly about your concerns and see what they say.
With best wishes
Robert
Robert Thomas
August 16, 2011 at 8:11 am
In my experience asking questions gets you kicked out.
Ex LDC resident.
John Swainson
August 16, 2011 at 5:04 pm
John, I’m very fond of you but even you would admit you did more than just ask questions!
However that doesn’t change that asking questions does get people kicked out, or can start the process when you become seen as difficult and uncooperative.
Abbie, I think the important thing for you right now is that athough you’re physically in the centre you don’t have to be completely emotionally and spiritually immersed in NKT. You can observe what goes on, and learn many more things than they are intending to teach you! I hope you are able to leave soon, and that in the mean time you are able to be discreet so nothing untoward happens to you.
lifegoeson
August 16, 2011 at 8:09 pm
Robert,
In reply to your comment about the secretive stuff going on at the centre.. I could ask but I don’t want to now I have read that many people who have asked Resident Teachers about things in the past, have been evicted from their centres! I live at the centre and I have no where else to go at the moment, so i’m watching my back.
Plus, if I did ask about any concerns I had or disagreements, guarantee I would get this reply :
“you should have more faith in Geshe La, and delusions such as these are in your mind etc etc etc”
At the moment I’m stuck with the NKT whether I like it or not!
Abbie
Abbie
August 16, 2011 at 7:48 pm
The old negativity and paranoia goes on. Abbie, please be aware that the majority of people who are posting on this thread have not been near the NKT in years, left due to negative views and have no idea how it operates now. It’s also fair to say that they have an axe to grind towards NKT and are not even remotely neutral or unbiased in their views. People do not get thrown out of centres for asking questions. I know Dema well and she does not operate like that. Also you are not stuck with NKT – it’ entirely your choice whether you continue to live in CBC or not, whether you continue to practise Kadampa Buddhism or not. It’s your life but don’t be swayed by naysayers whose views are wholly destructive to faith and everything that’s valuable in a spiritual life. It’s not beneficial to anyone to critise spiritual traditions. I’m sorry to have to say this as I have nothing personal against Tenpel et al, but their views are not based on valid minds. Think clearly, ask questions and choose wisely. All the best to you.
Wisdom Moon
August 17, 2011 at 12:43 am
@”Wisdom Moon”: After having tried to turn the thread into something more favourable for NKT there seems to be a need now to put down former NKT followers–who see NKT in a critical light–as negative and paranoid. Your comment is a nice example of the common NKT tactics: former followers who see NKT in a critical light are portrayed as “disgruntled ex-members”… well, this is what we are familiar with already.
Faith means to see the really existing qualities of an object. Faith does not have the function to see qualities where there are no qualities or to neglect faults where there are faults. Your talk of “wholly destructive to faith” is nothing more than pseudo-spirituality or pseudo-Buddhism; spiritual topics are bent for politics and to stop critical thinking or voices. Also I would like to ask you to do first yourself what you preach: “It’s not beneficial to anyone to criticise spiritual traditions.” why then Kelsang Gyastso and NKT followers are criticizing the Tibetan Buddhist traditions as being corrupt?
For a correct understanding of faith and a correction of the misunderstanding of what faith is, see:
http://www.amazon.com/review/RX1WFOI3Z393U/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&cdForum=Fx3NWYA35VV2CLL&cdMsgNo=5&cdPage=1&asin=094800679X&store=books&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx2XMB36ADMPXVF&cdMsgID=Mx2EHDF9TXHGUXI#Mx2EHDF9TXHGUXI
tenpel
August 17, 2011 at 6:31 am
Thank you Abbie.
When I read Robert’s comment “But when they did ask, information was always readily available” I wanted to reply that there are so many who did not experience it like this (especially when it came to serious misbehaviour in NKT but not only then), and how he can be so unaware of these reports or why he feels impelled to claim such things. But then I decided to leave it to the people discussing here to sort this out… Your comment hits the nail on its head from my pov and from the pov of many former NKT followers.
tenpel
August 16, 2011 at 8:01 pm
Tenpel is correct in his reply to “wisdom moon”. The moment someone leaves NKT they start calling us “disgruntled ex-members” and try to undermine us by saying it’s all different now, despite we hear all the time from new people leaving who prove to us that it has changed very little in important ways. We know the internal rules change, but we also know that these changes do not filter down to day to day life in NKT centres, and have very little effect on how NKT works eg look at what happened with the funds raised from selling Losang Dragpa Centre, even though internal rules state that money should have been used locally.
When Elliott/Thubten was caught abusing all those women we were told NKT had changed. Then Wass/Samden did the exact same thing. After the first round of anti-Dalai Lama protests we were told NKT had changed, then it went back and did it all over again. And these are just the big things!
I can only keep stating that it is easily possible to get your dharma from traditions that do not have these things hanging over it, and then you can practice with a clear conscience, following the Buddha’s fundamental advice to “first do no harm”.
NKT’s own “Truth” site shows what the issues are. Each person can ask themselves, why on earth would so many ex members “make these things up”?
The fact is these undermining tactics are another thing the NKT does that is unethical and self-serving.
lifegoeson
August 17, 2011 at 8:11 am
O.K. Life Goes On, so it was more like the relentless pursuit of answers which was ‘upsetting people’.
I make no apology for posting the following. It is correspondence between myself and New Kadampa Truth which some of you will have already seen. I include it as it illustrates the points raised about asking questions.
November 30, 2010 at 8:24 pm
In 2008 New Kadampa Truth replied to a question I had raised by saying they were glad I had asked a question directly rather than them hearing it from some other source.
I have always kept this in mind and have subsequently asked many questions directly, of both New Kadampa Truth and the NKT office.
I have had no answers to any questions since July 1st 2010. All my posts on NKT Truth were awaiting moderation and then disappeared without response.
The final reply indicated that my questions were being considered and there would be a reply when ‘someone had time’.
I would suggest that five months would be a sufficient period for reflection.
NKT Truth have, in the past, thanked me for the ‘opportunity to reply’ to questions and welcomed the ‘opportunity to clarify’.
You now say…
‘In general we will post comments even if we do not always agree with them as we are aiming to be as transparent as possible and allow people to express their opinions, providing they are trying to be constructive…
…It is better to have the constructive criticism here, where we can see it and deal with it, than in the various anti-NKT websites and blogs, where we have no opportunity to reply’.
I await your replies to the unanswered questions.
John Swainson
Reply from New Kadampa Truth:
Hi John,
The reason we do not post all your comments is not because they are prolific but because they have not all been constructive. We found the ones we didn’t post to be overly opinionated and, (apologies if we misread you), without any genuine wish to dialogue, just wanting to complain for the sake of complaining. By your own admission, you have also engaged in some actions deliberately to undermine the organization, and show no apparent wish for the organization to improve. We therefore have come to the conclusion that it might be better for all of us if we simply agree to disagree, at least for the time being.
Thanks and best wishes,
New Kadampa Truth
They did not post this one.
John Swainson says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
December 5, 2010 at 1:58 pm
New Kadampa Truth makes this statement…
‘If you have any concerns or complaints about the NKT~IKBU organization, teachers or managers, please feel free to email info@kadampa.org, or call [+44] (0)1229-588-533 and ask for an Education Council representative, who will address your concerns fairly in accordance with the Internal Rules 4.7 and 12.’
So I did.
From Kadam Lucy on behalf of Report at New Kadampa Truth 1st July 2010
‘ I have asked someone to look at your general comments/criticisms about the NKT dated July 1st and reply when they get time.’
From New Kadampa Truth November 30th November 2010
‘The reason we do not post all your comments is not because they are prolific but because they have not all been constructive. We found the ones we didn’t post to be overly opinionated and, (apologies if we misread you), without any genuine wish to dialogue, just wanting to complain for the sake of complaining. By your own admission, you have also engaged in some actions deliberately to undermine the organization, and show no apparent wish for the organization to improve. We therefore have come to the conclusion that it might be better for all of us if we simply agree to disagree, at least for the time being.’
The opening statement requests that concerns and criticism should be openly expressed through your forum or to the NKT office. Nowhere in the statement does it indicate that concerns or criticism should be constructive.
My experience of the NKT, 15 years, was at first positive. However, as events unfolded a lack of transparency became evident.
When I have made efforts to seek answers related to questions concerning possible breaches of the Internal Rules I have had little or no success.
If, when you refer to my ‘actions to undermine the organisation’ you mean my correspondence with the Charity Commission, then I ask, where else could I go?
We do know the results of that correspondence with regard to the funds from the sale of LDC and that they found the NKT to have not followed the Internal Rules as claimed on New Kadampa Truth.
New Kadampa Truth also said…
‘We cannot guarantee that we will have all the answers to your concerns, but we will do our honest best to help you clarify the issue and then, on the basis of having multiple perspectives, you can make up your own mind.’
But, where was the clarification?
The lack of response from New Kadampa Truth and the New Kadampa office is not helpful in ‘providing multiple perspectives’ so that I ‘can make up my own mind’ and in consequence, maybe less ‘overly opinionated’
As far as not wanting dialogue is concerned I have ended my posts with these comments…
‘It is the inconsistency between philosophy and action which is at the root of dissatisfaction felt by critics of the organization where money is involved. Or, was there another reason for closure?’
‘Was this the reason you could not find any one with the right qualifications for the Resident Teacher post, or will my initial belief turn out to be true?’
‘We know that the LDC property was sold in excess of £2,000,000, so why could the NKT not admit their responsibility for the remedial action? Or have I been misinformed?’
‘I feel the lack of response from the NKT office and New Kadampa Truth render their function, as sources of clarification or truth, redundant.
However, I may be proved wrong?’
…these indicate my willingness for dialogue, but to no avail.
John Swainson
On the topic of faith I include this comment made by a senior nun who was once at LDC.
‘Nice to hear from you. I hope everyone in LDC accept this drastic change with patient acceptance. It shows we don’t know much of what is going on. Our faith in Geshe-la saves us, as we believe he makes the right decision. Geshe-la tries to transform us in a way that is beyond my understanding, so we should remain as children who cannot judge situations.’
This unquestioning faith has no meaning for me. Are we not encouraged to ask questions?
John Swainson
August 17, 2011 at 9:36 am
What do you expect from worshippers of a wealth god?
“Buddhists billed after canned purchase”
18/08/2011
HISTORIC PLACE: Highden Manor, built in 1896, and set in 14 hectares, some of it native bush, between Palmerston North and Sanson (New Zealand).
Backing out of a deal to buy a historic Manawatu manor has brought more than bad karma for a Buddhist group.
The owners of Highden Manor Estate have won a $1 million court judgment against a branch of Buddhism called the New Kadampa Tradition-International Kadampa Buddhist Union.
Highden, a boutique hotel and function venue, had not been on the market when Andrew Michaels and Avril Druker were asked if they were interested in selling it.
In March last year they agreed to take $3m for the 14.06ha property with its large 1896 home and native-bush-clad grounds.
Overseas Investment Office approval was needed for the deal because the Buddhist group was incorporated overseas. A conservation plan was discussed with the Historic Places Trust as part of the OIO approval process.
Then in August last year the Buddhist group told the owners it was withdrawing its application for OIO approval and was not going ahead with the deal. It is understood it had doubts that it could meet some conditions of approval.
The business had been wound down in preparation for the sale; wedding bookings and other arrangements had been cancelled. The property market had also fallen since Mr Michaels and Ms Druker agreed to sell the manor.
They sued the Buddhist group for the difference between what the Buddhists had agreed to pay and the likely market price when the deal finally collapsed.
In a judgment in the High Court at Wellington, Associate Judge David Gendall has said the Buddhist group should pay $1.08m to cover the loss in value, $7100 marketing costs for an unsuccessful attempt to sell Highden after the Buddhists pulled out, and interest yet to be decided.
The lawyer for Mr Michaels and Ms Druker, Hugh Rennie, QC, said the judgment could be enforced overseas.
“It is a matter of finding some location where they have assets,” he said.
The Buddhist group’s website says they have hundreds of branches, spiritual bases and study centres in 40 countries. The “mother centre” is an English priory, but the list also includes a French chateau, a property near Hollywood, California, and a centre in an Italian spa town.
The Buddhist group took no part in the court proceedings.
The cults threatening response (undated) to the Dominion Post article above
“…NKT did everything correctly, nothing wrong. But now this presentation that your article gives, humiliates the NKT and is causing people to develop bad feelings towards the organisation. This seriously damages the the reputation of over 1000 NKT Buddhist Centres throughout the world, one consequence of which will be damage to the financial development of all these centres. W consider that the NKT would require a minimum of of US$20 million to compensate for this financial damage to over 1000 NKT centres.
We are advising you the proprietors of this newspaper, the owners of the property Highden manor and their lawyer have the responsibility to provide this compensation. It is clearly impossible for you to avoid this responsibility because you have caused this damage to the NKT and all its Buddhist Centres throughout the world.”
(signed)
Steve Cowing
General Secretary of the NKT-IKBU
http://www.allvoices.com/news/10013564-buddhists-billed-after-canned-purchase
Namkhah
September 13, 2011 at 6:29 pm
“…NKT did everything correctly, nothing wrong.” The mantra of KG… Its sad.
tenpel
September 13, 2011 at 7:32 pm
“This seriously damages the the reputation of over 1000 NKT Buddhist Centres throughout the world, [...]”
Well, that’s a result at least. It also doesn’t look good for them that the article states they own a French chateau, property near Hollywood etc. That’s the sort of info about NKT that needs to be broadcast more widely as it just shouts “Cult” and “Financial Exploitation of Followers” … oh yes and how they stole the Priory from the FPMT …
Heck, add some stuff about the teachings they had at Disneyland and that cruise ship thing they did … keep the information flowing!
“… damage to the financial development of all these centres …” Let’s raise our glasses to that too :-)
Folks, there are wonderful legit sources of pure Dharma out there, you have no need for this cult!
And they really seem to believe their own innocence … after all as the only source of pure Dharma they must be innocent, right? Brainwashing from top to bottom. As you say, Tenpel, sad indeed.
They also show their love of money by saying only USD20 million could make it better. Ooer! Not a very Buddhist sentiment.
lifegoeson
September 13, 2011 at 9:01 pm
An impure mind sees ‘cult’ whereas a pure mind just sees some buildings purchased by the kind donations of people who wish to liberate others from suffering in this and future lives. This is the truth.
Geshe Kelsang did not steal Conishead Priory from the FPMT – in fact, he saved it as FPMT were going to undemocratically sell it out from under the people who lived and worked there. You can read the true story of these events on the New Kadampa Truth site if you want the details.
There is nothing wrong with requesting recompense when one’s reputation is damaged unnecessarily. Celebrities sue newspapers all the time when they print lies about them – why shouldn’t religious organisations also have recourse to justice when they are wrongly accused? It’s not right that anyone can print anything about anyone. Justice is a Buddhist sentiment because Buddhists believe in truth and fairness.
Bill Esterhaus
September 15, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Bill maybe you apply your understanding first to the image of the Dalai Lama NKT promotes:
“An impure mind sees a ‘ruthless dictator’ whereas a pure mind just sees a holy being who wish to liberate others from suffering in this and future lives. This is the truth.”
NKT people’s mind is pure with respect to themselves but impure with respect to others ;-) I think there is somthing wrong here… and that there is something wromg here seems to be really a truth. ;-)
tenpel
September 15, 2011 at 1:40 pm
I’ve said this so many times in this thead one way or another: here goes NKT trotting out the same old defences. Anyone who disapproves of NKT is wrong and deluded, anyone who approves is virtuous and kind. Yawn. I’m too fed up to even argue the case, any reader here can make up their own mind, and if you’re struggling, the NKT’s “truth” website will give you a lot to consider, and not necessarily the way they mean it to.
lifegoeson
September 15, 2011 at 4:47 pm
Bill: How much of the 20 million bucks will Schilling’s get or is this a freelance NKT/IKBU threat demand?
Generally this sort of letter is comes under the basket of extortion, but “justice” will do for those who have elevated and spun a ghost to a buddha.
Namkhah
September 16, 2011 at 7:59 pm